Rick: Every organization taking any issue to Congress faces that same challenge. And I don’t ever want people to get discouraged because even though the media focuses on all of the conflict and the work that’s not getting done, there is work getting done behind the scenes.

Welcome to the Heard & Empowered podcast presented by National Industries for the Blind. You’re not just a listener here, you’re a catalyst for change. Whether you’re blind, visually impaired or an ally, this is your ultimate resource for building a fulfilling career and an enriching life. We’re on a mission to shift perceptions, open hearts and minds and unlock unparalleled job opportunities for the BVI community. Ready to be heard and empowered? Let’s welcome our host, Dr. Hoby Wedler.

Hoby: Hello, folks, and welcome back to the Heard & Empowered podcast. First, I want to just thank you so much, listeners, for your love and support and getting our podcast out into the world. Please continue to spread the love, we appreciate every single bit of it you can do. Any way that you can get more people excited about supporting employment for the blind and visually impaired, that is what we’re all about.

This week, I’m absolutely thrilled as we lead up to the spring conference of NIB in May, thrilled to have the Vice President of Policy and Advocacy, Rick Webster. Rick, welcome to the show.

Rick: Thanks so much, Hoby. Great to be with you.

Hoby: It’s great to have you here, great to be on. You do a lot of great work. I know that from conversations we’ve had in the past, but before we get started with that, I just want to get to know the man behind the mission a little bit. So tell me maybe about your college career, what you studied and why that was interesting to you.

Rick: Sure. So I grew up living in all parts of the country, was always a big news hound, very interested in watching CBS Evening News for years, interested in what was going on in Washington. I went to a small liberal arts college, Hope College in Holland, Michigan, and studied political science. And that led me to an honors semester program in Washington, D.C. And as I tell people, I was already in the nation’s capital for the last semester of my college career, went back up to Michigan to graduate in two days, and I was right back and I was already working. It’s been a fun ride.

Hoby: That’s a fun ride. What do you think it was about political science that sparked your fancy, like when you were in high school thinking about, “Boy, what do I want to study in college?” Was it just your fascination with government and news and this sort of thing?

Rick: Yeah, absolutely. And I had always intended to get to Washington, D.C., and that program brought me to D.C. And frankly, even as a student, I was already working part-time in the evenings doing some political fundraising. And I ended up working on one of the presidential campaigns, in what I say is the outside circles doing opposition research. And that was in the spring of 1984.

Hoby: That’s incredible. So working on researching the opposing side’s views and understanding them, and yeah, that’s great.

Rick: Absolutely. And it was the hard days of doing that work because there wasn’t a thing called the internet. So it was a lot of old-fashioned sleuthing through public libraries and records and microfiche and microfilm.

Hoby: There’s a lot of fun to be had there, too, though. I mean, I really do enjoy that type of stuff as well. So that’s great. And what sort of led you to NIB? Walk me through your career from graduating college to ending up at NIB. You started at NIB almost 12 years ago, correct?

Rick: A little over 12 years ago, correct. So I’ve worked for a number of nonprofit organizations working on a variety of policy areas around labor policy, tax policy, international travel facilitation and border security, environmental policy, international commerce. I really didn’t have any background in the blindness field, I am a sighted person.

I had a colleague when I worked for the travel industry who was legally blind. He used to use ZoomText and had a very large monitor. And frankly, everyone was jealous that he had this massive monitor on his desk. For him it was just functional, for everyone else it was a point of fascination and curious interest in what he had.

But I was in between positions looking for work and it was actually a former colleague, a woman who used to work for me, who knew of the opening with NIB and passed it along to me. And lo and behold, after a lot of phone calls and a lot of in-person interviews, they hired me back in June of 2011. It’s really been the highlight of my career because I’ve always wanted to leverage the public policy process to do the most good for the most people. That really, at the end of the day, is my goal. And utilizing the skills and abilities, such as they are, that I have to work with policymakers and to work with communities.

And I love working with our associated non-profit agencies and working to advance the careers and lives of people who are blind.

Hoby: Thank you for your work in this area. And I can hear it in your voice, the passion behind it, the desire to use and leverage the education and the career that you have, ultimately to help people live more independent and better lives.

Rick: Absolutely. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what drives me. I joke with people and say that the days I’m in the office, it’s a long drive to the office, and I put up with D.C. traffic for a purpose, for a reason, and that’s to advance our mission at NIB.

Hoby: There it is. I love that. And thank you for your amazing and hard work in this area.

Maybe you can walk me through a history, if you don’t mind, of advocacy within NIB. So, we know the organization was founded in 1938 as part of the Wagner O’Day Act, which eventually became the AbilityOne Commission®. Was there any advocacy beyond Franklin Delano Roosevelt saying, “Yyes, we should have blind people making products, manufacturing products for the federal government?” There really wasn’t a movement yet, was there an advocacy platform at that time? Is that correct?

Rick: There were certainly leaders in the blindness field that led to the introduction of the Wagner O’Day Act, which later became the Javits-Wagner-O’Day Act. So, they really had to lobby Congress to get that legislation passed to be able to authorize the program back in 1938. And there were further changes in the early 70s to the program, which expanded it beyond individuals who are blind to people with significant disabilities.

So, there were giants in the field that were lobbying or advocating Congress to have this program established way back in the day. And frankly, they were very progressive in the efforts they were making because people were graduating from and leaving schools for the blind, but did not have the employment opportunities that sighted individuals would have had at that point in time. So, they worked very hard to get Congress to pass that legislation and have the president sign it.

Hoby: And were a lot of those folks blind themselves?

Rick: They were. The leaders who were at the forefront of the passage of the Wagner O’Day Act were, in fact, people who were blind. And again, I’m sighted. I’m not blind, but I have a passion and I’m on a mission, along with my colleagues in NIB and all of our associated non-profit agencies, to make a difference in the lives of people who are blind. So, it’s important. It’s critical.

Hoby: I love that. Blind people were getting great educations from schools for the blind, but then they weren’t able to turn those educations into gainful employment.

Rick: Correct.

Hoby: And some fearless leaders said, “Hey, wait a minute, this isn’t right.” And now, almost 86 years ago, got the president to sign that legislation.

Rick: Indeed.

Hoby: Maybe you can walk me through, so now it’s past 1938, we have NIB. It’s a thriving organization that is really supporting non-profit agencies that both train blind folks, independent living skills and all the skills they need to be employable, travel and what have you. And in these agencies, a lot of them produce products or run call centers or have contract management divisions, et cetera. Did NIB start their advocacy efforts pretty soon after their foundation? How did that all work?

Rick: We’ve had to advocate all along through this process. You can’t take for granted the support of federal agencies to participate in the AbilityOne® Program. One of the interesting things about the Javits-Wagner-O’Day Act is it really doesn’t have any enforcement mechanisms within it. So there’s really nothing that compels a federal agency to participate.

So another form of advocacy, if you will, is going to those federal agencies and reminding them of the mandatory purchase nature requirements of the program. It’s a mandatory status program, but it’s again, no enforcement mechanism. So there’s been a lot of outreach over the decades to educate contracting officers and educate federal agencies about the requirement to participate in terms of fulfilling their contract needs through AbilityOne if the right products and services can be delivered on time and at the right price.

So there’s both the advocacy we do with Congress, but there’s been advocacy to educate federal contracting officers for decades about the AbilityOne Program.

Hoby: Fascinating. No, and so incredibly important to have that advocacy and to have folks making sure that this opportunity maintains itself. And a lot of that, going to the federal agencies and reminding them, is good customer service in general. So it fits right in.

Rick: Yeah, our work is to convince them that we make quality products and provide great professional services, and we can fulfill their needs. We can meet those needs on time and provide great products, great services. So there’s a lot of that work that is done with federal agencies just to educate them about the program.

And it’s ongoing. We can’t take it for granted because as people retire from federal service and younger people come up, they need to hear about the program and understand the value that it brings and how we can fulfill their needs.

Hoby: The advocacy program today and sort of how that program works and what it is, when was that program built, more or less, as we see it today?

Rick: Well, we have our Advocates for Leadership and Employment program, which started back in 2012. So that’s been going –

Hoby: And that’s the brainchild.

Rick: That’s Kevin Lynch’s brainchild.

Hoby: Okay.

Rick: I simply had the privilege to work with others to execute it. But Kevin Lynch had that as an idea for years, and we began it back in 2012. And it’s a formal program, so I always say Advocates with a capital A or uppercase A, everyone in our program needs to be an advocate, lowercase a. They always need to advocate with policymakers, with federal contracting officers… But this is a formal program where our associated nonprofit agencies will submit an applicant, an individual who’s blind, who has some interest in policy and in advocacy, but probably needs to learn about how it works. And we work with them to do training over a couple of years in person.

And we work with them one-on-one. And what we try to do is help them understand how the legislative process works, what the art and science of advocacy is, how to engage in meeting some members of Congress. And it’s an ongoing process and we have, currently, not quite 60 people in the program, and I think we’ve probably trained 100 people altogether. So we’re always backfilling. We have a little bit of attrition. We’re adding to our ranks, and we’re just about to close out the application process for the 2024 class.

Hoby: Wow. And I imagine a lot of the training takes place at the conferences that NIB holds twice a year, and a lot of it happens remotely as well. Is that right?

Rick: Yeah, so in the spring, we do in-person training for a full day, and then we do it remotely over the phone, by email. We’re constantly being asked questions, “I’ve reached out to the Senate office, they’re not getting back to me. Do you have strategies about how I break through and get them to respond?”

And a lot of the work that we do is to also, frankly, just instill confidence in people that their personal story, as they share it in meetings with elected officials, matters, and how to tie that personal story to the top legislative priorities that we’re going up to Capitol Hill with. And we do that training in the spring, again, each spring, but we do it year-round. And it’s a lot of one-on-one. It’s a lot of group exercises. So it’s a fun process.

I really like to see how people who come into the program who might be a little quieter, a little shyer, just really blossom, and you watch that confidence grow. And you sometimes even have the privilege of sitting with them in a House or Senate office, watching them engage with a lawmaker, and them walking out going, “I never thought I could have done that. I never thought I could have.”

Hoby: And how proud does that make you? You’re helping someone come out of their shell and ultimately earn this advocacy work.

Rick: It’s a pleasure to watch them blossom and grow.

Hoby: That’s incredible. And I imagine a lot of the in-person training is mock meetings with congressmen.

Rick: We do mock meetings. We help them with what we would call our elevator pitch. You’re in an elevator and a member of Congress comes on. They say hello and maybe extend a hand to greet them. What are you going to say in that 30 to 45 seconds? How are you going to explain who you are, who you work for? Why are you on Capitol Hill? What’s important to your agency? What’s important to our community?

Hoby: And that’s great training for anyone to be able to deliver a solid elevator pitch in any case about anything, because people’s attention spans are short and we need to know how to get in there and get the word across.

So these advocates in training are in training, you said, for about two years.

Rick: It’s two years of formal, each spring at the conference, we do formal training, it’s pretty intensive. But the training is ongoing. And the thing we always want to stress is once you come through those two years of formal training, we want you to keep coming back for the spring events. We’ll have other classes and training, but the training never stops. Your work as an advocate with an uppercase A continues on.

I think sometimes there’s some misunderstanding about, gosh, they’ve gone through the training, we’ll put someone else through. We have some new people come on in new classes, but that person continues in that role as an advocate, representing themselves, their colleagues at their agency in the larger program and community that we are part of.

Hoby: Yeah, it’s amazing. And is there some sort of when they “graduate” from the training, they are now an advocate with a capital A?

Rick: They are. And again, everyone in the program has to advocate in some way or another. And we don’t really stress too much the graduation aspect because then we think people feel like, gosh, now I’m done with this.

Hoby: Now I’m done. Yeah. Right.

Rick: No, you’re just getting started, trust me.

Hoby: Do you have some advocates who have been with the program since inception?

Rick: Absolutely. One of them you’ve actually already had on one of your podcasts, Lise Pace with Bosma.

Hoby: Amazing. Oh my gosh.

Rick: She was in the inaugural class.

Hoby: That’s incredible. And look at her moving her way up in Bosma, in her workplace, and also just continuing to advocate all the way.

Rick: Absolutely.

Hoby: Yeah. So guide me through, if you will, what happens in terms of advocacy, formal advocacy with men and women of Congress during the spring conference? What tends to happen?

Rick: In the spring, what we do is we have our associated nonprofit agencies fly into Washington, D.C., and we have an entire day that’s dedicated to them going on Capitol Hill, physically in person for meetings. Thank goodness we’re beyond Covid. And last year, we were back to in-person meetings and this year will be the same, barring some sort of change. And those are the most valuable meetings because face-to-face, it’s really difficult to replace that.

So you want to be there in person. A lot of the meetings will have members of Congress present, not all of them. So we prepare people and say, you may meet with your senator or representative. They may be there for 10 minutes. They may not make it. And you may be sitting there with a young staffer who is 22 but appears to be much younger. And we stress to them the importance of their role because they advise senators and representatives on these issues. So please don’t look disappointed if the senator doesn’t show.

Hoby: And senators and representatives rely on these people for information.

Rick: Absolutely. They are dealing with a huge range of issues, and they can’t be experts on everything. And they really want to be there to greet their constituents. Sometimes they’ll sit there for the entire meeting, but it just depends upon what committees they’re serving on and hearing schedules and if they need to be called to the floor for votes.

It’s a frenetic environment, so we also try to prepare our advocates who are new to this that haven’t been up to Capitol Hill to understand that bells are going to go off and buzzers are going to go off. Sometimes you meet in their personal office and it’s a little quieter. Sometimes you meet in a hallway, and it could be a little loud and a little disorienting, that’s when we give our elevator pitch.

And you have to gauge how quick is this meeting going to go? How much time do they have to speak with you? And you have to find a way to share your personal story, connect it to whatever key issue you want to ask them when you talk about making an ask or a request.

And so we do have one key issue we’ll be taking to Congress already starting next week here in 2024, but certainly in mid-May when we’re up on Capitol Hill on May the 15th, asking Congress to establish a 1% AbilityOne utilization goal for the Department of Defense. That’s our largest customer. And the fastest, most efficient way we can grow more employment opportunities for people with disabilities through AbilityOne is to have our largest customer nearly double their current utilization of the program.

So we’ve fought on this for years, Hoby. And I tell you, nothing happens quickly in Congress.

Hoby: No.

Rick: People spend their entire careers moving a particular issue forward, a particular piece of legislation. So we’ve been fighting on this for probably close to 10 years. And we’ve had some successes, but not full success having this type of provision, AbilityOne utilization goal provision included in something called the National Defense Authorization Act. Not to get too nerdy and too in the weeds on policy.

Hoby: No, no, do it. Nerdiness is good.

Rick: That’s a must-pass bill that Congress passes annually. It’s the Defense Authorization Bill, and it’s essentially the blueprint for the military. And we’ve tried to use that as a legislative vehicle because, again, the Department of Defense is our largest customer and this would be a utilization goal for DOD, which I hasten to add, they support. They support and, in fact, have already committed to a voluntary goal of 1%. But it really is important that it be a statutory or a mandatory goal because what Congress mandates, Congress measures.

Hoby: Correct, yeah.

Rick: And they’ll ensure there’s oversight.

Hoby: Right. So that, and just to make sure that our guests fully understand what that means, 1% means that the Department of Defense, your largest customer, will be mandated to purchase at least 1% of their goods and services from the AbilityOne Program.

Rick: Correct, 1% of their procurement spend. And then the current utilization is slightly more than one half of 1%. And again, there was a federal advisory committee process called the Section 898 Panel, it has a much longer name, and I’ll dispense with that. But in numerous reports, they supported the AbilityOne utilization goal for DOD. So the department supports it. We just need Congress to support it. We need bipartisan support for that goal.

Hoby: And do you personally believe that DOD will do its best to work its way up to that 1%?

Rick: We do. We believe they’ll do that. And I think it gives, again, a little extra push or a little oomph, if you will, when it’s mandatory and statutory versus voluntary.

Hoby: Absolutely.

Rick: And again, Congress isn’t going to pay attention if it’s a voluntary goal, that’s up to the department.

Hoby: I 100% agree.

Rick: But if you put it in law, then they’ll have oversight hearings. It’ll come up, and we’ll be watching, others will be watching. And we’ll remind Congress, once we can get this passed and placed in law, of that requirement. So we are very happy with our friends at DOD and the branches of service and the other DOD-related agencies. And they want to do more, we just need Congress to help them find a way to do more with us.

Hoby: Now, NIB associated nonprofit agencies produce products that are sold into the federal government, into the Department of Defense. But Source America, which is the other central nonprofit agency, basically provides services. So does that 1% procurement spend that we’re advocating for only refer to NIB associated nonprofit agencies, or are we talking about AbilityOne as a whole?

Rick: AbilityOne as a whole, absolutely. So while Source America agencies primarily focus on services, they do also do some production and manufacturing. In the same way, while we are predominantly more in production and manufacturing, we’re increasingly adding more and more professional services, even on the NIB side. So it’s a mix of those things.

Something like contract closeout is an area under contract management services support. It’s something we’d like to do a lot more and expand that work with DOD and with other federal agencies. So it would be a mix of both professional services as well as equipment to support the men and women in uniform.

Hoby: Incredible. That’s so cool. And I imagine your advocacy program at NIB works quite closely with Source America.

Rick: We do. In fact, I was just talking this morning with my counterpart at Source America. We are tied at the hip and it is a joint effort, and we would not be able to succeed if we were going on the Hill separately with separate messages and we were not in concert and step with one another.

Hoby: So important.

Rick: So it’s critical we carry the same message, the same exact request of Congress. They’re going to hear from multiple voices, from lots of different states and different districts around the country, but we have to be in lockstep.

Hoby: Collaboration is so key to getting anything done, especially at the federal government level, it seems.

Rick: Yeah. If there is any sense of division within the program, members of Congress can sniff that out. And they’re going to say, Source America is telling us this and NIB, NAPB are saying that. We’ve got to bring this together.

Hoby: What do we do? Yeah.

Rick: Come back to us when you’re on the same page. The good news though, Hoby, we’re on the same page right now.

Hoby: Amen to that. I’m raising my hands in celebration because that’s key.

Rick: Yep.

Hoby: Now, does NIB set up the appointments or do we have the advocates set them up for themselves on the Hill?

Rick: So we have all of our non-profit agencies set up their own meetings. And in the past we’ve had an outside firm sort of set those up, but there’s a cost to that. And frankly, there’s value in the process of them reaching out as constituents, even talking with the schedulers.

Hoby: Yeah, exactly.

Rick: And developing relationships.

Hoby: What do you want to talk about during your meeting?

Rick: Exactly. And I will tell you, today’s scheduler in a congressional office could be then the receptionist and then be a legislative correspondent and a legislative assistant. They move quickly up the ladder within those offices. You want that relationship because it’s all about relationships and building trust and just having them understand who we are as a program and them as individual non-profit agencies. So it’s all about relationships and educating them.

It’s worth it, even though sometimes it can be a pain setting up those meetings. It can be challenging. And it’s not as personal nowadays because a lot of it is driven online and filling out a form. But offices still, you’ll still talk to a human.

Hoby: When you call an office to make an appointment, yeah.

Rick: Now, if they have challenges in setting up a meeting, we’re always here to assist our agencies. But they have that leverage, they have that power because it’s a constituent organization, constituents calling from back home.

Hoby: Amen to that, yeah. And that’s what I love too about your advocate training program. And when people are scheduling meetings and anything in between, you guys at NIB are always there to assist.

Rick: Always there.

Hoby: And make sure things work as well as they can, which is incredible. And we strive, don’t we, to have 100% attendance from each associated nonprofit?

Rick: We try. We don’t get every agency there, but it is important that it’s all hands on deck.

Hoby: Absolutely.

Rick: And we want to stress more and more that it shouldn’t be 80 or 90% of the agencies carrying the load for everyone, everyone needs to be engaged. And not everyone’s comfortable coming to Washington, not everyone’s comfortable going on Capitol Hill. And we sometimes hear again, “Rick, you do this full time. You understand these issues better. I’m not comfortable.” Look, they don’t give me a lot of slack. They know I’m a professional lobbyist and I’m an advocate doing this, but I’m a registered lobbyist. I truly am. So when I walk into an office, I better know my stuff.

They cut them some slack. They roll out the red carpet because they’re from Missouri. They’re from Florida. They’re from Texas. They’re a constituent. They don’t expect them to talk about these issues perfectly and understand it all. And if you’re ever asked a question you don’t know, you say, “Congressman, I don’t know. Senator, we’ll get back to you.” It gives you an opportunity for follow-up and you should be following up anyway.

Hoby: Amazing.

Rick: But it’s a built-in opportunity if you don’t know every answer to every question.

Hoby: Exactly right. And any time that we can schedule another meeting or get back to them on an answer, even through a scheduler or whatever the case may be, is a win.

Rick: One thing I will stress quickly, Hoby, is that what you say to them, you don’t need to be perfect in these meetings. What members of Congress can understand better is authenticity. They need to hear personal stories. They need to hear authentic stories. And you don’t need to be polished and perfect, you simply need to be you. You simply need to tell your story, connect it to whatever that policy issue is, in this case the request for the AbilityOne utilization goal for DOD. Make that connection.

And I will tell you, members of Congress are going to remember that personal story. And I can give you example after example of a member of Congress maybe not remembering statistics and figures, maybe vaguely remembering the ask, but their staff is going to follow up on the ask, the legislative ask or request, but they’re going to remember the person and remember that personal story. And that’s what’s critical.

Hoby: And let’s face it, when a blind person with a cane or dog walks into their office and sits down and knows their stuff and advocates for what blind people need, they’re going to listen. And they will absolutely remember that, not even months, but years later.

Rick: They will absolutely listen, and those stories are powerful.

Hoby: They are so powerful.

Rick: They are powerful. And you’ve got to move hearts and minds in this process.

Hoby: Right, exactly.

Now, I know there’s, as we said, things take time in Congress. So what are some other sort of further out initiatives that we want to work on this year in 2024?

Rick: There are some challenges, I think I alluded to earlier, with non DOD agencies not necessarily participating robustly in the program. So we’ve got some work we want to do in compliance with the program.

A much longer term issue that continues to be a critical one that I’m not sure it’s actionable for 2024, but we’ve done surveying in the past and know that about 70% of employees who are blind in our program are disability insurance beneficiaries, SSDI beneficiaries. And it’s an important federal support that they’ve earned for years of work before they actually obtained SSDI.

Some of them, unfortunately, can’t earn more because they’ll go over something called the substantial gainful activity threshold, getting nerdy again with policy. But their careers can, in some cases, be stunted. They can’t take on more hours. They can’t take on promotions for fear of losing that benefit if they go over what’s called the earnings or cash cliff of SSDI. So we have a lot of work to do in that area.

And I really do think it’s one of the most challenging issues that really is blocking people in career advancement within our program. So that’s another issue we need to tackle.

Hoby: People don’t want to lose their insurance benefits, but they also, if they can’t get gainful employment because there’s a cap, we’re not doing our job in employing people. It’s as simple as that.

Rick: Yeah, and unfortunately I think some members of Congress don’t believe people are doing what they call parking right underneath the SGA threshold. And I will tell you, if they had a long enough career before they began receiving SSDI, again, an earned benefit, it’s possible that benefit could actually be, cash benefit be greater than what they earned through their employer.

Employees in the program tend to skew a little bit older, so it’s more difficult, unless you’re going to go back to school, get a master’s degree, get other training, and you’re okay with losing that benefit and having your income go down for a short period of time, but that’s more challenging if you’re older.

And we want to make sure that people, the solution we propose is to have people be able to earn over that threshold. And for every $2 they earn over that limit, they would lose $1 of the federal benefit. So over time, as their earnings increase, that benefit that’s being paid out by the federal government will decrease. So the federal government wins and the employee wins and their career can take off.

Hoby: That’s a win for everybody. And then eventually the SSDI dries up and every dollar that they take in is $1 earned.

Rick: Yes.

Hoby: I love that.

Rick: And they’re paying more in federal income taxes, state income taxes. So it’s a win. It’s just a challenging issue because it’s caught up in the larger politics around entitlement and entitlement reform. It’s not an issue we can just deal with in isolation outside of the larger issues around social security and entitlements.

Hoby: Absolutely, it makes good sense.

I want to chat about this potential opportunity when congressmen and senators are in what we call recess, when folks are back in their home districts. How do we leverage that recess period?

Rick: Great question. So we started about 12, 13 years ago, really focusing on the August break when Congress is out for about six weeks. And they’ll spend part of that time doing business and part of that time, frankly, just relaxing in some downtime. Asking our nonprofit agencies to invite members of Congress in to see the magic. To see the work they’re doing and the employment they provide for people who are blind in a wide range of service and manufacturing opportunities, because they can talk about it in Washington, obviously, I always say seeing is believing.

And I can say that because every member of Congress is sighted. There are a couple who have blindness in one eye, but they’re sighted. So when they come to that nonprofit agency, they can see the amazing opportunities being offered for people who are blind and they need that as a reinforcement for the messaging they’re getting in Washington.  So it’s important that our nonprofit agencies come and –

Hoby: No, it’s and.

Rick:. You’ve got to do the meeting in Washington, but then it’s critical to invite them on not just the August break, but frankly any break and including weekends. If they fly home for three or four days, get them when they’re back home and bring them in and bring them in again and again. And you have a brand new facility opening. You’ve got an anniversary. You’ve got a whole new product line or a new service offering. Use that as an excuse, because there are no politicians, there’s no members of Congress that don’t love the opportunity for a grip and grin and photos and to get on the local news.

Hoby: Amen.

Rick: So leverage it. If you’re in the House you get reelected every two years, in the Senate every six years.

Hoby: They need this.

Rick: They need constituent support.

Hoby: They need the publicity and we can provide it to them. By golly, they’re going to remember the beautiful yellow lab that came into their office in May and they’re going to want to see it again.

Rick: Absolutely, yes.

Hoby: I think that’s really powerful. And one of the things that I really – We’re going to be at the conference, I definitely want to be able to chat with some of your advocates in training and do some interviews with them and also think about how we can leverage the break time, the recess time for the podcast. And maybe even get some men and women of Congress or senators to talk about their care for the work that we do.

Rick: Oh, that would be great. I can think of a couple of members in the House of Representatives that starting back in December have really made a push for legislative branch agencies to participate more robustly in AbilityOne. And it’s one Democrat and one Republican.

Hoby: I’d love it.

Rick: We love that kind of bipartisan work. We would love to help with that.

Hoby: It would be amazing to do an episode with both of them together.

Rick: Oh, that would be great.

Hoby: Yeah. No, anyway, it’s just exciting to talk about the future and let our guests get excited about what we’re going to be working towards in the future.

But our time’s running a little bit short, is there anything else that you want to share that I didn’t ask about as it pertains to the advocacy work of NIB?

Rick: One thing I will say, we talked a little bit about the challenge of working in Congress, but one thing I want to stress is every organization taking any issue to Congress faces that same challenge. And I don’t ever want people to get discouraged because even though the media focuses on all of the conflict and the work that’s not getting done, there is work getting done behind the scenes.

So we always want to encourage our agencies to never lose heart. And it’ll take years to work on some of these issues, but we have to keep after it just like every other organization in Washington. And we have to find a way to break through the noise and to have our voices heard. That’s what we’re all about. It’s a high-touch, personal business.

Hoby: And to tie that back into blindness, we know as blind folks that we don’t get the training we need overnight. You have to be patient. You have to take it one step at a time. And Congress is no different. Advocacy is no different.

Rick: Congress is no different. There are hurdles and there are challenges, and in some meetings you might be frustrated. Other meetings you walk out and you’re so excited because you can tell the message got through. They heard you and they didn’t just, “Oh yeah, we’ll take care of that.” They sincerely meant that they’re going to sponsor that bill. They’re going to take a message down to the floor of the House or the Senate. And you work toward those breakthroughs and those wins.

Hoby: And they’ll be the ones that get authorizations written in for 1% into the NDAA.

Rick: Yes. We call them champions and we want real champions, not people who pretend they’re going to support. We want people who are willing to fight for us on the floor, introducing bills, reaching across the aisle, talking to colleagues, talking up the program. Those are the real true champions that we need for this program.

Hoby: That’s exactly right and such a crucial part of this. Just to talk about the process a little bit, once the National Defense Authorization Act gets our clause included, 1% AbilityOne for the Department of Defense, that bill is mandatorily passed by both the House and the Senate, is that right?

Rick: Yeah, so what we need to do is each, the House and the Senate, the separate armed services committees work on their own package, if you will, their own bill. And we need to get into one of them to be in play. And what’s going to happen, like with a lot of other authorization bills, they’ll come together in what they call “conference.” Once they pass the bill through the House, the bill through the Senate, then the conference happens and the conferees, which is the leadership—both committees and other people they appoint from those committees—they come together and they do conference the bill. It’s a staff level, but on the big issues, the members themselves negotiate.

It’s an interesting process, an interesting political dance. And you need people in that conference process that are going to fight for this provision.

Hoby: You need it for both the House and the Senate because the conference is both.

Rick: Yeah, we just need to be in one of the bills. And if you’re in the House bill, then you need the Senate to accede to and agree to the House provision. So you’ve got to get in one or the other, if you’re in both, you’re good to go.

In an ideal world, you’ll be in what’s called the chairman’s mark, which is the chairman of the committee lays out a blueprint for what he or she wants in the bill and what the chairman wants, the chairman’s going to get. That’s a gold standard, if you will. But I don’t think it’s going to be possible for us to get in the chairman’s mark in either of the two bills. But to get in play you’ve got to get in one of the bills and then reach conference and then push from both sides.

Hoby: And you have to have supporters in, let’s say we got in the House bill, and then in conference the folks from the Senate have to be willing to accept our provision.

Rick: Correct.

Hoby: So we have to work both angles.

Rick: Absolutely. You work the Senate and you work the House and you work with all members of Congress, whether or not they serve on the committees on armed services, but you particularly focus on those members because they’ve got more leverage, more pull in the process. They may be in the room along with the leadership of those committees. They pick who they want in the room as part of the conference process.

Hoby: And once the president signs it, we’ve got our provision in place. Is that right?

Rick: It’s in law. And in an ideal world, we would have it done this year. It’s a little bit of a shorter session in a presidential election year and there are unique challenges. And the NDAA is normally a very bipartisan process and a very orderly process. The process broke down a little bit in 2023 due to some politics, but normally it’s an orderly way of doing it.

And I think for 60 plus years, they’ve always passed the NDAA without fail by the end of the calendar year. So that’s why it’s a critical legislative vehicle. It’s a must pass bill, and so you need to be part of that legislative package, that vehicle.

Hoby: It’s just like a budgetary must pass. It’s that critical.

Rick: Yes.

Hoby: Yeah. No, very interesting. And once it’s in law, what are the mechanisms or actions that can remove it from law? Do we still have to keep talking about it?

Rick: We do have to keep talking about it.

Hoby: I think so too.

Rick: And you’ve got to remind the committees and other committees that have oversight jurisdiction over the program to be looking and to measure whether or not the DOD is in fact increasing its utilization. I don’t know that we’ll have any particular time frame around this, and it’s not something that could ramp up right away, certainly. But we want to keep reminding Congress that it’s a statutory goal, should we get it passed, I don’t want to get ahead of ourselves in this process.

But we’d have to remind Congress that it’s in place and they should be asking the department, how are they doing toward meeting that goal over a period of time?

Hoby: I love it. One other question for you. Does your division of NIB support state and local advocacy for the associated nonprofit agencies?

Rick: We don’t very often specifically get involved at the state legislative level or local level. We have a pretty limited staff. We certainly can advise people if they have questions. And the skills that we teach to people in the advocates program certainly are transferable to meeting with a state senator or state delegate or a mayor or a city council member. It’s really the same process of building a relationship, educating, informing them, doing that follow-up.

It moves much more quickly, I will tell you, at the local or state level than in Congress. I spent the first 15 years of my career doing state legislative work, and it is a fast-moving process. But all of those skills are the same. It’s no different if you talk to a city council person or a US senator. Maybe a little more nerve-wracking at the US Senate level than a local city council member.

Hoby: Sure. And by all means, you encourage the agencies to do advocacy work at the state and local level.

Rick: Oh, absolutely.

Hoby: The more the merrier.

Rick: Again, because things don’t work very quickly in Congress, and there may be ways that they can expand opportunities through state use laws and other ways that they can have greater utilization by local and state governments of the products and services they provide. We always want to encourage them to have the best relationships. And even with state vocational rehabilitation agencies and leadership there, there’s so much that could be done, even outside of the federal side, on the local and state level.

Hoby: I love it. That’s incredible. Rick, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And like me, I’m sure many folks who listen to this are going to be very inspired by you. How can people get a hold of you if they want to?

Rick: They can certainly reach out to me at rwebster@nib.org, I’d love to hear from them.

Hoby: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Rick: Thanks, Hoby, appreciate it.

Hoby: Really appreciate your time. Have a great day.

Rick: You too.

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