I would say go for it because you may think that everybody is looking at you differently or whatever else, but everybody is so busy in their life that they’re really not. Just embrace, first of all, get your technology, get your assistive technology skills really at a decent level. Force yourself to go out and mingle in the greater society and that self-consciousness disappears.

Welcome to the Heard and Empowered podcast presented by National Industries for the Blind. You’re not just a listener here, you’re a catalyst for change. Whether you’re blind, visually impaired, or an ally, this is your ultimate resource for building a fulfilling career and an enriching life. We’re on a mission to shift perceptions, open hearts and minds, and unlock unparalleled job opportunities for the BVI community. Ready to be heard and empowered? Let’s welcome our host, Dr. Hoby Wedler.

This is a special episode recorded at the 2023 National Industries for the Blind Conference in Washington DC. Please excuse any audio quirks as we capture these conversations, but we guarantee the wisdom is pure gold.

Hoby: Hello and welcome back to the Heard and Empowered podcast where today, I am beyond honored and flattered to be speaking with the amazing Doug Goist from NIB and NSITE. Doug, how are you?

Doug: After that introduction, I’m even better. Thank you very much. That’s a flattery I don’t deserve, but I appreciate being here.

Hoby: Come on, you deserve it.

Doug: No, I don’t.

Hoby: So, Doug, just tell us where you’re currently employed and what your title is.

Doug: Absolutely. I’m an employee of National Industries for the Blind. I’ve been working there for… now I believe it’s 13 years. And in addition to working at NIB, NIB has a business enterprise called NSITE, a small team where I’m also helping people find employment who are blind. And it’s been very fulfilling overall in the past 13 years and I’m very appreciative.

Hoby: Awesome. You know, one of the things I find interesting is how we get into this line of work and how we get into this idea of really, ultimately trying to lower the unemployment rate of the blind community, which is what this podcast is all about, it’s helping people get that strength and confidence you need to get back into the workforce and have a really good time doing the jobs that they do and creating some really amazing dignity around that.

But I want to know how it all started. And if you don’t mind just sharing sort of your backstory with me, you know, college and beyond and how you got into this area of work and what sort of propelled you into your current career.

Doug: I’d be happy to. I had what would be, I guess, considered a very typical normal American upbringing. I grew up in Northeast Ohio and I didn’t know anybody with a vision impairment or blindness. It wasn’t even a concept that I knew about. I did have an uncle who was in a wheelchair, but outside of that, we moved from the suburbs out to a farm that my dad bought with 55 acres.

So I was very active, and my brother and sister and I rode horses, rode motorcycles. My brother and I played pretty much every sport that you could think of, in addition to high school and grade school all the way through. And I got my driver’s license, I was excited for that because that was a whole other independence. I couldn’t wait. I’d already been driving motorcycles and tractors and so forth, but just for fun.

Hoby: Sure.

Doug: And so my basketball team at the time of my senior year was really good. We were pretty much undefeated. Well, we ended up 18-2, but that’s beside the point. But I noticed that from my junior to senior year I seemed to be getting worse for some reason.

Hoby: At playing basketball?

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: What position were you on the court?

Doug: I played, for any basketball fans, three, four, five positions. So that would be center, that would be five. But I’m still thin, so I’m 6’4” right now, but I could play a couple of different positions. Anyway, I figured I’d be starting for sure. And then during practices, I found with the complicated plays I was losing where my position was, I was running into teammates and doing things like stepping on a baseline where I was out of bounds. The coaches were like, what are you doing?

I didn’t really think about it too much. And then I also played tennis and golf, and I played baseball. Baseball practice I went out to the outfield during one practice, and they hit the ball, and I lost track of where it was in the sky. In golf, I switched from a white ball to an orange ball because I kept asking everybody where my ball went. And tennis was kind of another situation, but I didn’t really think too much of it until finally I brought it up. My mom, well both my parents noticed something different, that I was tripping over the dishwasher door when it was down, stepping on the dog.

And then one evening at dinner, I think I barely remember it, but I just made a comment that I can’t see all the food on my plate. So here what it was, was that I didn’t know it was peripheral vision loss. And so this was right before my high school graduation. And so I went to Cleveland Clinic, and they put me through an entire day of tests, and I was still very positive. I’m like, oh, it’s probably just something they can fix. I waited all day, and the doctor came out and he told me that I had retinitis pigmentosa and there was no treatment, no cure.

I remember seeing commercials about it that you were basically going to most likely lose all your vision. So I was kind of numb from that point. And then I was accepted to Wake Forest University in Winston Salem, I had kind of big plans. I had come from a family of scientists and doctors and so forth and I really wanted to go into medicine, either research or surgery. So I was angling for pre-med.

And then as I went to a retinal specialist at Mass Eye and Ear, I went into an experimental study, a drug trial study with a double blind placebo. There were 700, I think, 60 people in that trial. I was the youngest and, unfortunately, I was the worst performer. So they threw out the worst performer and the best performer because we don’t want to bust the curve for the treatment. But it turned out massive doses of vitamin A was the best outcome.

But when I talked to my doctor, I said what my plans were, and he didn’t want to tell me at 18 years old that I couldn’t do something. So I, kind of in the back of my head, knew I probably should not pursue so much science, so I figured maybe law school or something because I was always able to write pretty decently and comprehend text and so forth.

So that gets us up to college. And I was still driving, I still had a very normal college. I think only a couple of my close friends I told. I was starting to lose night vision, my peripheral vision kept shrinking and I just didn’t want to talk about it because I didn’t want to be treated differently around campus.

If I had to do it all over again, I would definitely have handled it differently because I was… like many people that are listening to this, there’s a big piece of denial of the stages of grief that you go through that everybody knows.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: And I stayed in a couple of those stages, in my opinion, far too long, like anger.

Hoby: Anger and maybe not understanding that, okay, there is true real life after this.

Doug: My concept, because I was a huge movie fan – In fact, that’s another story, after college I worked for a film studio.

Hoby: Really?

Doug: Yeah, on a major motion picture, behind the scenes, with Robert Duvall and Laura Dern.

Hoby: Really?

Doug: And I had done student films, one of them my film teacher showed at graduation. But I still was in huge denial, so having that film background and knowledge of so many films, I just knew blindness from films and TV.

Hoby: Sure, seen blind characters and everything.

Doug: Yeah, so you know how it is.

Hoby: Oh yeah.

Doug: So you have the different characters, and I think at that time John Ritter was – What was that called? Skin Deep I think it was called.

Hoby: Yeah, something like that.

Doug: No, no, he wasn’t blind, but there was a blind man that was walking in a parking garage and John Ritter… it was kind of a comedic scene. Prior to that it was See No Evil Hear No Evil with Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder.

Hoby: The funny thing is, these stars who played blind people are not blind.

Doug: No. And I think Jennifer 8 was a movie way back when. But I think I even said that, you know, I was a young kid and I just thought I’m going to be selling pencils. Like, what possibly could I be doing if I lose all my vision? I really didn’t think I could do anything.

Hoby: Because you were such a visual person.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: You played sports, watched movies.

Doug: Yeah, and I had a lot of the questions that we get asked from people that are sighted, like, how do you do this? How do you get to point B on your own?

Hoby: So at what age do you think you denied it until?

Doug: I probably denied it – I went through the worst period out of college when, like I said, I was working two jobs and just not wanting to give up my driver’s license. I finally, finally understood when people started cutting me off and I didn’t trust the other drivers. I trusted myself because I was hyper-vigilant, but it became too much white knuckle, and I gave that up. And finally, I said, okay, if I wanted to get anywhere it was a cab for $28 to go to the grocery store, no buses, nothing really walkable.

And I was still in an apartment that I could see, and my vision was rapidly decreasing. So I didn’t know about Social Security, and I think it was my mom or a family member who did the research, because I didn’t want to research this stuff, and found that I needed to talk to somebody to get a counselor, which I did, a vocational rehab counselor.

Hoby: That was scary.

Doug: Yeah. And so I agreed to meet with her, and she was great. So she ordered all the assistive technology that I needed because I was a point and click guy with a mouse. I knew no keyboard commands.

Hoby: Right, but you were very good with a mouse.

Doug: Yeah, and I could type like 120 words a minute. And so it was that kind of thing. And then my counselor was telling me that there was a personal adjustment to blindness training program. And I knew nothing about NIB. Turns out back then it was called the Pittsburgh Guild for the Blind.

Hoby: Okay.

Doug: And it’s an NIB-associated agency. And I said, you know what? All I need are two AT weeks of training. I don’t need anything else. But she said no, there’s a three or four month in-dorm full-time.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: And so, in fact, they kept calling my phone and I let it go to voicemail because I had a hard time taking that step. Finally I did. I said, you know, it’s a Shawshank Redemption quote, but you’ve got to get busy living because it’s obviously not getting better.

Hoby: Yeah, I love that. And I love that quote, I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Doug: Yeah. The other phrase a lot of people know is, you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Hoby: Totally:

Doug: And that’s where I hit rock bottom and I’m like, all right, I need to do something. I entered that program, and it was eight to five. I learned how to read Braille. The most difficult part was I still had some vision so to walk around the public streets with a white cane, my assumption was everybody was staring at me. And so I felt shame and discomfort.

Hoby: Right. Did you have a sleep shade on or a blindfold, something?

Doug: Yeah, she did that. She was great. Like she would send me, like on my final exam where I had to take a bus all the way to the mall, smell where the Starbucks was and go find the massage chair or wherever the tech store was, and then come back and then go get a menu from a restaurant in another location and across all these streets. And so part of that training was some computer training, but also a little bit of job searching.

But the best part about that was meeting people in my exact same position from all ages. From a gentleman who was an executive at Carnegie Mellon Bank, or Mellon Bank, very well off, and then all the way down to teenagers. And there were people from multiple states.

Hoby: Wow! It was really a melting pot of experience, and everybody was in kind of the same boat.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: And initially, I did not want a roommate.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: And I admittedly, for the first two weeks, I went to class, went back on my bed, put my earphones in and kind of tuned out, even though I had a roommate. But he had a condition, Usher Syndrome, so he had major hearing loss, but his vision was still okay, and he was younger than me. But we ended up being especially a couple of friends, one of my closest friends. I was… friends with for a long time after that just because of that experience. But that’s when I realized that, yeah, you’re not alone. It’s good to talk to people about it that are in your situation.

Hoby: You bet. That’s one of the most important things, is to really have those conversations. And that’s how you got introduced to NIB.

Doug: Well, the funny thing is somewhere in that time period, and this was before that training, I went to back then it was RP Foundation, and they have annual conferences, its Foundation Fighting Blindness now. And so I was at a conference in Chicago because I was only interested in the science. I wanted to know how to stop this when it’s going to stop. And I met this woman who gave me her business card. And I didn’t remember her after that point, but her name was Kathy Gallagher.

Hoby: For those who don’t know, Kathy Gallagher is a big name in NIB, and she’s been around forever.

Doug: Absolutely. And so fast forward years later to my orientation or what have you, they introduced me to her, and it just rang a bell. And I’m like, wait a minute, this might be the same.

Hoby: That’s so funny.

Doug: I don’t know how many years later it was. But after my rehab training, I moved from Ohio to New York City, because why not? And so that’s a whole other story, I ended up starting my own medical transcription and web content writing business.

Hoby: Wow!

Doug: While my counselors were trying to find me employment.

Hoby: I love it, an entrepreneur at heart.

Doug: And so, yeah, and so I ended up at NIB because I didn’t like New York anymore. But a friend of mine lived here and she said Old Town, Alexandria is just like Brooklyn, like you can really walk everywhere. I could still take the bus or train up to see my friends in New York. So I was still doing my business here. In fact, I was doing official transcripts for the House and Senate through another party.

Hoby: Okay. Actually copywriting for them.

Doug: Yeah, and so everything had to be 100%, you cannot change any word of what a senator said. But so here’s kind of a lesson learned of my stubbornness still, all through my business I did not tell any client that I was blind.

Hoby: And you could pull it off pretty well because you had some vision.

Doug: No, I had no vision at that time, when I moved to New York.

Hoby: Okay, so you pulled it off just by working remotely.

Doug: Absolutely. In fact, this was before really digital conversions of things, so I made the joke that, and especially when I was living in Brooklyn, I’m like – They must think I’m a drug dealer, because I’d get courier, bike messengers, FedEx, UPS, and they would send me source content on all sorts of digital tape, VHF, whatever it was.

Hoby: Wow! And they would read it onto that tape?

Doug: Yeah. So I finally caved in and ordered a transcription machine with a foot pedal, but I did everything through email and phone.

Hoby: Wow!

Doug: And I was so afraid that as soon as they found out I couldn’t see, they’d be like, oh, no, no, no, we’re not giving you any more work, because I was an independent contractor. And so I would take twice as long as maybe a normal person because every letter, every word had to be perfect.

So I made the joke this morning that in one situation I had this big medical project which I said, yeah, I could do this. And they sent me a video which is fine, I’ve done it before. So I had to write the time elapsed every 30 seconds, which was kind of a pain in a Word document. I could see it on the screen, there was a great accessible app or software called Express Scribe out of Australia.

Hoby: Okay.

Doug: Yeah. So I got a call, yeah, it was a call. And they said, and this is a big project, it’s a focus group with patients and doctors. So we want you, in addition to the transcript, to go ahead and type all of the body language of both the people and the doctor.

Hoby: Ha, ha, ha…

Doug: And so I fibbed, to be honest. I said there’s something wrong with my video card. I really am having an issue with that, so if I could just do the transcript.

So, in other words, it was a lot of stress that, again, I didn’t have that awareness to think that people would have cut me a break.

Hoby: sure.

Doug: I was so terrified to lose income because New York, as you know, is expensive.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: And I was fighting with that cash cliff with SSDI.

Hoby: Right, because you’re making your own money as is.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: And meanwhile, you’re dealing with working with your rehab counselor to get training to take some job.

Doug: That was my hope.

Hoby: And then you’d get out of the consulting work.

Doug: Yeah, I was burning out. I think because I was so thorough, I got a lot of requests. But some of the New York International companies I was dealing with had offices in Beijing, Frankfurt, Hawaii, pretty much every time zone. And so the only way they really communicated was through email.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: So I had to almost be up and checking my email around the clock.

Hoby: Yeah, right. Interesting.

Doug: So I was burning out very quickly.

Hoby: Right, so you had to quit that.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: Yeah. And then flash forward, you got your training. And you incidentally, a few years later, heard Kathy Gallagher’s name again and then you ended up here.

Doug: Yeah, it was funny. So I moved to Old Town, Alexandria and I had no idea NIB was a mile, it was maybe less than a mile from my apartment.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: And so I looked years before, you know when you look for any shred of opportunity, I’m sure I saw NIB’s website. But I’m like, well, with my background, I don’t know what I could do. And so they started the CMS program working with the Department of Defense.

Hoby: Yeah, right

Doug: I’m like, oh, there you go.

Hoby: I can do that.

Doug: So I applied for that, and I was persistent.

Hoby: Sure.

Doug: I mean I followed up. I said, “did you get my resume?”

Hoby: But at this point, they knew you were blind, and they embraced that.

Doug: Yeah. Yes.

Hoby: Which felt very different than before.

Doug: Absolutely. And prior to that I had a connection to – And I’ve told this story to others, but there was a CEO for a company in DC who’s a friend of a friend. And he took me out to dinner after our interview and it was to do some communications work.

Hoby: Sure.

Doug: But his comment to me, and I really appreciated it, over dinner was just he said that the staff was wondering how I used a computer. That was their big question.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: And I didn’t have a computer with me to show them. And it’s a totally natural question to ask somebody. When I tell people looking for work now it’s like it’s good to get that out of the way because he knew, but they didn’t know. So I walk off the elevator with a white cane and they hand me a clipboard to fill out paperwork.

Hoby: Yeah, that doesn’t work. Right.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: So you ended up at NIB doing CMS work, and that was 13 years ago.

Doug: Correct.

Hoby: And now you’re working with NSITE, and really you are the tech guru, I would say, for NIB.

Doug: It’s funny, because I’m always asking, I’m very curious, I’m always asking for any new information on things like that. And so that was the reason they hired me, one of the main reasons they hired me, so I went through their internship program. I was going to work on contract administration. I wasn’t so interested in just doing the day to day contracts, but negotiating contracts seemed like a good opportunity. And I’m grateful because I went through NIB program, and I ended up getting certified as a Department of Defense contract specialist.

Hoby: That’s amazing.

Doug: And sitting with some people from all of the three letter agencies and just learning all about that.

Hoby: Three letter agencies, meaning the agencies that they support.

Doug: Well, these were government, like Defense Intelligence, Geospatial Intelligence, and they were all sighted and they were all experienced. So it was a trial by fire, but I ended up actually being helpful in some cases.

Hoby: Well, and they embraced your blindness, that’s the biggest thing. And that’s what we’ve been learning about here, is that the agencies are supportive of blind people and NIB is supportive of blind people. So you worked directly with NIB on those contracts?

Doug: Well, I was trained up to be able to do those contracts. So it was a three month, basically, internship in this program, because it was brand new at the time.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: One of the main reasons they hired me was we have a partnership with defense acquisition, it’s an online university that DOD runs.

Hoby: Right.

Doug: And so being a very skilled JAWS user and all the different browsers, I gave a lot of feedback on how they needed to improve the LMS.

Hoby: Good. Good for you.

Doug: And I ended up, I think I took over 300 screenshots of things that they could improve upon.

Hoby: And you would advise.

Doug: Yeah, just so people behind me wouldn’t have the issues. Like you would complete a module and there would be an orange circle, it would be half-colored or colored in.

Hoby: Sure.

Doug: And so anyway, the long story short of that is when they saw me kind of working with them, then since it was a new program they said, hey, can you come in and help with the CMS program? And that was fulfilling. I mean, it was. So I was kind of the front-end person of when people were applying, I would talk to them and see where their skill level was, especially.

Hoby: Yeah, I love it. No, I love that. That’s very cool. And you would essentially determine, by talking to these people, where they fit in?

Doug: Yeah, and I was very candid because I think that you’re just doing a disservice, because understandably, all of us have been in this situation.

Hoby: Of course.

Doug: I mean, I remember talking to a gentleman who was living in Greenwich, Connecticut, was a big Wall Street guy who had just had a 12 month old, losing his vision. And I said this is something you could possibly do.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: All the way to people who had no interest in contracts, but they were just wanting work to work. And just kind of telling them, this is what the job is.

Hoby: And then that was, again, you knowing some of what the agencies did, and it would help people who contacted NIB directly.

Doug: Absolutely.

Hoby: And then that led you into the workforce development program.

Doug: Correct.

Hoby: Which is sort of how you landed at NSITE.

Doug: Correct.

Hoby: And another question I have for you is… and the reason I took the time for you to tell your whole story, and I appreciate you doing it, is because it really helps listeners understand the ups and the downs. And a lot of people have told their story, but no one in the detail that we just heard from you. So thank you for that.

Doug: Is that a bad thing?

Hoby: No, it’s a great thing. It’s a great thing. Are you kidding me? I absolutely love it. One of the questions that I have for you, and this is getting a little more philosophical, what advice would you give your 28 to 30 year old self now, knowing what you know?

Doug: That’s a good question, and hopefully I can be of benefit because I would definitely do it differently. The first thing is, if you’re losing vision or you’ve never had vision, especially in today’s society with the technology, or just within the past 10 years, I wish I had some of this technology.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: But the big thing is, don’t apply to jobs just because they’re income, because you’ll be miserable. Find out what you really like to do, and then be targeted about it.

Hoby: Right, yeah.

Doug: Just be super focused.

Hoby: And figure out what training you need to do and what you need to do.

Doug: Yes.

Hoby: And even if, for instance, you can’t drive a truck, maybe you can be a mechanic.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: I mean, that sort of thing, I love that.

Doug: Yeah.

Hoby: What have you seen in people, what have been sort of some of your observations in people who have come to you when you were helping people figure out where they could fit into the contract management services realm of work? I mean, I’m sure you see skill levels all across the board, right?

Doug: All across the board.

Hoby: And when you’re candid with people, are they usually really upset, and they walk away quite defensively? Or do they ultimately thank you for your candor?

Doug: I think it’s more of the latter because I am very sensitive about it having gone through the situation with blindness that I know how fragile sometimes your emotions are, and so forth. That you’re so desperate to get out of your situation, to get off SSDI, to be self-supporting.

I remember I talked to, I think it was an emergency room doctor, and he didn’t even use a computer. All of his nursing staff did. And so I was going through the enrollment process with him. It’s fairly complicated through defensive acquisition to create an account. And I finally just said, you really need to learn computer skills, and here are some resources.

So anybody I talked to who needed resources, you can’t play a concerto with JAWS if you only know scales because you just started using it.

Hoby: I love it. Yeah, I love that. JAWS, by the way, is a screen reader that we often use on the computer. Yeah, no, very, very cool. I really appreciate your thoughts here and your insights here, Doug, because it’s really important for people to understand.

One other question for you that really comes to mind, and I think you’re the perfect person to ask this of. Where do you see most people really get that spark of success when they come to NIB and want to learn something? Like where do you see them say, okay, yes, I made it, like I crossed the hump?

Doug: I would say there are so many examples of that. I remember in the CMS program, one of the initial candidates, it was such a great story hearing from him that he was working on a contract, and he ended up being hired by the government. And he said, I was waiting to have a full-time job to ask my girlfriend to marry me. And so he did.

Hoby: Wow, I love that.

Doug: Yeah. And so for everybody else, too, it’s Wow! I’m actually contributing, I’m off the couch, I’m out of the chair,and I’m actually being productive, and I’m helping people. And the resources.

Hoby: Exactly.

Doug: And people are understanding, they’re not judging you.

Hoby: You can get full-time work, fully get engaged, buy a house, live your life to the fullest. That’s what we’re all about here, is supporting you as you do that.

Doug: And if there could be a silver lining to this horrible black cloud of Covid and shutdowns is that it’s forced a lot of businesses to work virtually and remotely.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: And so it’s B-Y-O-D, bring your own device.

Hoby: Exactly.

Doug: So a lot of people now can find opportunities that didn’t exist where you have to relocate to New York City, which a lot of people don’t want to do.

Hoby: That’s true. We’re running short on time here, I could talk to you for hours. I love your story. I love your tenacity. I love your love for tech, if that makes sense, and just appreciation for technology being our friend. What advice would you give some – I just have this last question, what advice would you give someone who is really on the edge? They’re thinking about this but they’re so nervous about stepping out into the world of training and earning gainful employment. What would you tell them? What would be your words of wisdom?

Doug: I would say go for it, because you may think that everybody is looking at you differently or whatever else, but everybody is so busy in their life that they’re really not. Just embrace, first of all, get your technology, get your assistive technology skills really at a decent level. Force yourself to go out and mingle in the greater society and that self-consciousness disappears.

Hoby: Yeah.

Doug: And then pursue any education for there are so many more opportunities out there now. The worst thing that’s going to happen is somebody’s going to say no, and you’re going to take it personally, maybe the first couple times. But dozens and dozens of times I got no, and so…

Hoby: Exactly, and that’s the worst they can say.

Doug: Yeah, I mean, so what? They just don’t know your value, that’s what it is. And you probably don’t want to work there anyway. So you’ll find your groove, in other words, and find what you’re interested in and be able to do that.

Hoby: Love that.

Doug: So just skill up, be proactive, don’t sit around waiting for your counselor to find you work. Just start calling.

Hoby: Doug, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show and I know people are going to want to reach out to you because you’re an inspiration. Do you mind if we include your email address in the show notes for this episode?

Doug: Absolutely not. It’s dgoist, and so just from my DOD training that’s Delta, Golf, Oscar, India, Sierra, Tango, at N-S-I-T-E dot O-R-G, or I have two emails, N-I-B dot O-R-G, so same first letters.

Hoby: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for your time. This is the Heard and Empowered podcast, and I just had the great pleasure of speaking with Doug Goist. Thank you, Doug.

Thanks for being a part of today’s conversation. Please subscribe to ensure you never miss an episode, give us a five-star rating if we deserve it and leave a review. Even just one word will help others discover the game-changing content of our show. For more information and free downloadable resources, visit heardandempowered.org. That’s H-E-A-R-D A-N-D E-M-P-O-W-E-R-E-D dot O-R-G. Until next week.