Intro: 00:00 

Welcome to the Heard & Empowered podcast presented by National Industries for the Blind. We’re on a mission to empower people who are blind, low vision, or visually impaired to build fulfilling careers, gain personal independence, and take the next step toward achieving their own American dream. Guests from all walks of life share their journeys and how they overcame challenges they faced along the way. Whatever your interests, experience, talents, or career goals, listen to discover important connections and unlock the resources and inspiration you need to chart a new path. Ready to be heard and empowered?

Dean Thompson: 00:35 

Hi there and thanks for listening to the Heard & Empowered podcast. I’m your host, Dean Thompson. First off, do me a favor. Tell somebody else about this. Get somebody else to listen because we think there’s good information up here.

And today I’m especially anxious to talk to our guest, whose name is Joannah Harris, who joins us. From where in California are you, Joanna?

Joannah Harris: 00:53  

I’m actually in Northern California in Mckinleyville. So kind of about an hour from the Oregon border. We’re surrounded by redwood trees and near the ocean. So today it’s actually really foggy enjoying the coastal weather up here.

Dean Thompson: 01:08 

Well, I’ve got to talk about the folks in NIB about sending me out to these interviews in person to be far more fun, to be in Mckinleyville today, I’m sure, than where I am here in the New York City NIB Studios. So let’s start off by telling you about yourself. Who are you? Where are you? What do you do for a living?

What? Tell me a bit about Joannah Harris, please.

Joannah Harris: 01:26  

Yeah. Thank you so much, Dean. I really appreciate the opportunity to just kind of be here, you know, and share my story. And so, you know, just to give you a little bit of background on myself, I actually have degrees in computer science and mathematics from Humboldt State University. And I really wanted to be able to kind of share, you know, that love and that joy for, you know, computer science and mathematics with others.

And so I ended up actually teaching high school mathematics for about four years and had a lot of fun doing that, but then had some changes with my vision and so that, you know, caused me to really kind of step back from the teaching that I was doing and, you know, take care of the medical needs that I had. And kind of during that time, you know, I had some time off. And my twin sister, Julie actually encouraged me to, you know, pursue my masters and kind of with that little bit of a push, I went back to school and actually got my master’s in applied and computational mathematics from Johns Hopkins. And so and so, you know, for me.

Dean Thompson: 02:35  

I’m appropriately intimidated. But go on please.

Joannah Harris: 02:37 

Yeah. And so for me, that was, you know, a really wonderful learning opportunity, you know, a chance to kind of, you know, really kind of marry those two passions that I had with mathematics and computer science.

Dean Thompson: 02:48 

Let’s step back a bit, if you don’t mind me interrupting. Oh, sure. Sure. Can I ask you what became of what effect did your side of it? I’m asking, how did you lose part of your.

Joannah Harris: 02:57

Yeah. So I was actually born three months early. So my twin sister, Juliana and I were born in September. We were actually supposed to be born at the end of December. And so kind of during that process, they had to give us a lot of oxygen to sort of help us breathe in the neonatal unit.

And actually what that oxygen does is it actually damages the retina of your eyes. And so if you can kind of imagine sort of in typical eyes, sort of has a very strong kind of lattice pattern, but sort of when that oxygen gets kind of pushed through there, it causes some sort of abnormal growth in the back of the eye. And so that really causes areas of weakness and places where it’s susceptible to tearing. And so I’ve had a couple retinal tears in my eye that have required some operations. So, you know, that’s, you know, caused some changes with my vision over time.

Dean Thompson: 03:54  

So you’ve never had what could be described as normal vision in your entire life then.

Joannah Harris: 03:59 

Yeah. But it’s actually, I mean, normal for me. So, you know, it’s something I’ve had to deal with my whole life. So, you know, for me, it’s my normal. And so, you know, I still have that attitude.

Like, I can walk into a coffee shop and read the menu, even though, you know, even though I really probably can’t see the small font that’s on the menu. But, you know, with the assistive technology, you know, with tools that I have available, you know, I can kind of deal with life just like anybody else.

Dean Thompson: 04:27  

Right. Cool. What happened after you got out of school? You said it was another change in your vision. Was that another retinal tear?

Joannah Harris: 04:33 

Yeah. Yeah, I actually have kind of two eyes that I see out of. I’ve got my left eye that I don’t really see very much out of, just sort of shapes and colors. It just kind of hangs out there. And so my right eye is actually my good eye and that’s, you know, the eye that I do most of my seeing out of and kind of while I was actually teaching, I woke up one morning and I couldn’t, couldn’t see out of part of that eye.

And so I immediately had to take some time off. Go to the specialist down in Sacramento, which is about a six hour drive from where I’m at. And then we had to kind of perform some surgeries and laser surgery on how to, to try to preserve that vision. And so, you know, definitely a little bit of a setback in terms of, you know, where I was at and very unexpected and, you know, but at the same time, you know, I’d saved a vision and then I and I can see and you know, when I can see, I, you know, I’m able to kind of take in. So things like the colors in the sunset, you know, the flowers.

So, you know, for me, that’s my joy. And, you know, I had to take some time to kind of adapt to those changes and, you know, learn some more assistive technology beyond, you know, what I already knew?

Dean Thompson: 05:53 

I think it takes a great deal of bravery to teach school on any level, with any level of vision. But you were teaching school with less than 2020 vision, and then you found you could no longer teach school, am I right?

Joannah Harris: 06:06  

That’s correct. Yeah. I actually was sort of the only visually impaired teacher there. And so, so that was a really an interesting experience for my students because, you know, I was the teacher that had the dog in the classroom and, you know, so of course everybody wanted to come by and say hello to my dog and, you know, visit and just, you know, kind of get that experience of what it was like to, you know, be just a different classroom because, you know, the way I taught was not the same. And in a sense, you know, it allowed the students to kind of, you know, get a different understanding.

You know, here I was, you know, dealing with a disability, you know, not being able to really, you know, see what kind of students are writing on the paper. So, you know, instead we had to actually, you know, talk things out. And so, you know, I was actually having that conversation about mathematics with the students and you know, that gave them the opportunity to explain, you know, verbally, you know, what they were looking at. And then we would kind of talk through, you know, the things that they were struggling with, maybe that was, you know, dealing with, you know, a Pemdas thing or, you know, a Foil problem. Or maybe they didn’t understand how to find the vertex on a parabola.

And so, you know, it really allowed us to kind of open that door to have that intellectual discussion about mathematics. And, you know, in a sense, too, it also sort of normalized, you know, what we were doing in the classroom. We were there to, you know, solve problems, to figure things out and to do that together. And so ultimately, you know, I think it gave the students that strength to know that they could overcome those challenges. You know.

Dean Thompson: 07:47 

What grades were you teaching? What level?

Joannah Harris: 07:49 

I taught middle school and then also high school.

Dean Thompson: 07:53

Let’s go back to now. When you stopped teaching school, your sister encouraged you to go back to school yourself. You did. You got some amazing education. Those wonderfully intimidating degrees that you talked about, you get out of school, you’ve got a new thing.

You’ve come to Johns Hopkins. Did you feel freshly empowered? How confident did you feel coming out of your second round of college before you went back into the job market?

Joannah Harris: 08:16

Yeah, I was actually, you know, for me, it was a great opportunity because, you know, having that time off teaching, I was really at first, I think, disappointed, I think, because I really enjoyed the teaching. But then, you know, visually it was something that I really struggled to do. Now, you know, grading 120 pages, you know, students work with, you know, no vision. It was actually something I found I couldn’t do anymore. And so, you know, really limited sort of what I was able to do as a teacher.

And so it was time to change. And so I knew it was. But, you know, taking that initial leap, I think, you know, into, you know, a new, new academic field was a little intimidating. And so, you know, it was refreshing, I think, to go to Johns Hopkins and, you know, be welcomed with open arms and, you know, meet with a staff that had a very great assistive technology department. And, you know, even though I was sort of doing my classes remote, this was during Covid time.

They were able to, you know, send me my material in the mail. And so, you know, here I was getting, you know, all of my math material, you know, in large print, in braille, in a format that I could actually read and be successful. And so in that environment, I actually excelled. And I was, you know, oftentimes at the top of my class. And so, you know, that was a great reminder of, you know, the skills that I have if I’m able to kind of, you know, utilize my talents and, you know, kind of take advantage of this kind of, you know, that mental capacity that I do have.

And coming out of school, you know, I was kind of on fire. I was, you know, really excited and really, you know, kind of jazzed and looking forward to, you know, that transition. And, you know, ultimately, you know, I ended up getting kind of right out of college internship right away with the Metropolitan Transportation Commission in San Francisco. And they had me solve some really challenging problems and, you know, kind of take on some new challenges in the realm of data science and statistics. And so that ended up boosting my confidence and getting me really excited about, you know, pursuing a career in the field, you know, being a professional in data science.

And so, you know, kind of wrapping up that three month internship, I started applying for jobs and then kind of all of a sudden sort of as if, you know, there was this little earthquake, you know, the job market just kind of shook itself up. You know, we went from, you know, there being a significant number of remote jobs to sort of a very strong push back to the office. And so, you know, for somebody who was actually, you know, looking for that remote job, it sort of changed that trajectory a little bit. And then, you know, things shifted even more with the advent of artificial intelligence. And so, you know, those jobs in data science kind of started to sort of wither like little, you know, grapes on the vine at the end of, you know, the season.

And, you know, I had applied at that point to, I think, about 300 jobs.

Dean Thompson: 11:53 

Turn down.

Joannah Harris: 11:54 

You know, some of them were just, you know, ghosts where you didn’t hear anything back. You know, some of them. I got a couple interviews and I went to, you know, 2 or 3 stages, but didn’t end up getting the job. And so, you know, it was a real struggle. And I was sort of at a low point, you know, where I knew that I had a lot of great skills.

I had a lot of, you know, valuable, you know, kind of experience with, you know, being a teacher with going through the academics, you know, with having that experience working with, you know, the metropolitan transportation. But I wasn’t getting traction and I wasn’t being seen. And that was really disappointing. And so, you know, I was sort of at a low point. And that’s when I actually got introduced to the folks in NSITE.

Yeah, that was actually a great opportunity. I was meeting with an individual at the Lighthouse for the Blind. And we were kind of doing a little bit of, you know, job coaching. And he said, I’ve got some people that you need to meet. And I was like, okay.

And so he introduced me to Marianne. And kind of through that introduction, I got introduced to Maurice and Stacey. And so Maurice and Stacey were pretty wonderful. And they kind of took me in, they heard my story and they wanted to learn a little bit more. And so they worked with me and we, we met over zoom for, oh gosh, I think about half for maybe a dozen times.

And they just, you know, drilled me on some of those interview skills. So, you know, the Ace method, the star method, and really helps to kind of build my confidence and, you know, kind of allow me to be able to, you know, speak with intelligence and, you know, have those really quick, short answers that, you know, were kind of that I was missing because I think the teacher in me, you know, wants to give that, you know, 30 minute, 60 minute, you know, lecture. But, you know, not everybody has that patience and especially when you’re in an interview scenario. You know, you want to be able to kind of answer those questions in a short amount of time. So, you know, they worked on drilling, you know, those three minute answers into me.

And that helped. That really made the difference that I needed to, you know, excel and succeed.

Dean Thompson: 14:29  

What period of time would you say you spent with the folks from NSITE, becoming educated about the job seeking process? How long were you with them before you began to go out and look again for another position?

Joannah Harris: 14:40 

I think probably about six, maybe about six weeks. So, you know, it really was kind of that motivation, you know, that I needed I just needed somebody to be kind of like looking over me, being like, how are you doing? You know, are you still applying for jobs? Are you still looking? You know, I know you’re a valuable, you know, candidate.

You know, I can see that. And so, you know, how is that going? And you know, so sometimes it was just talking about, you know, the challenges that we were facing, you know, how difficult it was, but also, you know, understanding that I was not the only one going through that struggle. And so that gave me the motivation to just, you know, keep at it. And through that, I got I learned a little bit more about the Blind Institute of Technology and was able to kind of take some courses in digital accessibility.

And so kind of that changed my trajectory again.

Dean Thompson: 15:41 

Can you identify one thing you think you got from NSITE, or one set of skills or thing that made a difference in your life?

Joannah Harris: 15:51

You know, I think the biggest difference was actually, you know, learning to kind of discuss my disability. And so, you know, that was something I think that I always kept sort of close to my vest. You know, it was something that I struggled to, you know, to really talk about. And I think with the work with Morris and Stacy, what they really allowed me to be able to do was, you know, disclose that disability and talk about it in a way that shows my strengths, you know, because I might have, you know, limited vision. But at the same time, I have, you know, a great compassion for empathy, for understanding, you know, for being able to, you know, use the tools that I have available to sometimes, you know, do things quicker than my sighted colleagues.

Dean Thompson: 16:42 

When you finished those six weeks, did inside help set you up with some interviews? What was the next, next, next move? The next phase?

Joannah Harris: 16:49

Yeah. Morris and Stacy work with NSITE. And so Morris actually is part of a kind of a talent acquisition sort of a team. And so they’re helping people that are actually, like myself, looking for jobs and, you know, kind of trying to, you know, develop that skill set so that they can, you know, work with kind of building the resumes, you know, developing those interview skills and, you know, also connecting them with, you know, maybe other people in their field of interest, you know, so that they’re starting to kind of develop those professional relationships.

Dean Thompson: 17:30 

So you and Stacy put you on a path to getting a job. Was it just that simple? Am I being too simplistic here?

Joannah Harris: 17:36

That’s exactly it, you know. And so I still remember, you know, Maurice, he actually, you know, connected me with a few people that were sort of in data science and then, you know, learning that I was also interested in digital accessibility. He connected me with Tanner Greer. And Tanner is actually the founder and CEO of Accessibility Officers, which is a digital accessibility company. And so I had sort of a chance to have a brief, maybe 15, 20 minute informational interview with Tanner.

And during that time, Tanner actually asked me specifically about the CSUN Assistive Technology conference, and that sort of sparked my interest. It wasn’t, you know, something that I knew about. And, you know, it’s actually one of the largest assistive technology conferences in the world. And so within a week, I was actually on a plane down to Los Angeles with my guide dog to attend the CSUN Assistive Technology Conference. And kind of during that time, I did some more professional networking, and I actually got connected to Cathy Sherry, who works with Onward Search And just kind of that brief introduction with Cathy.

You know, I kind of kept following up with her after CSUN, and ultimately Cathy was the one that helped land my current position at level access. And so, you know, sort of kind of with that spiderweb of network connections, you know, I was able to actually, you know, land the position that I’m at right now that I’m very happy with.

Dean Thompson: 19:32 

It’s all about networking, isn’t it really.

Joannah Harris: 19:34 

It is. You know, and sometimes it’s just, you know, stepping outside of that comfort zone and, you know, doing something, you know, that you’re not ready to do, but that you have the skills to, you know, to be able to kind of tackle and, you know, so for me, you know, getting out of my small, you know, country environment into Los Angeles was a little intimidating, you know. But I knew, you know, with my guide dog by the side, by my side, you know, with, you know, my cell phone that talks to me. You know, I could get there and I could, you know, introduce myself and as a professional and, you know, gain some skills and meet people and get excited and ultimately, you know, develop, you know, those connections that would land me that job.

Dean Thompson: 20:23 

You said your confidence was shaken, which is more than understanding, but was there a moment when you felt it was coming back? I’m back. I’m. I’m Joannahof old. I feel good again.

Did that happen to you?

Joannah Harris: 20:33 

Yeah, I think, you know, that was actually those conversations with Maurice and Stacey. You know, they really, you know, every time they really allowed me to be able to see my value, you know, to know that I had, you know, talent and skills that I didn’t even maybe see in myself. And, you know, to be able to articulate those to an employer in a way that I could be seen and And so ultimately, you know, once I was kind of freed of some of that, you know, and able to really, you know, see that as an asset and, you know, see that as something that was a great skill, you know, that I could talk about it with confidence and not have it be a barrier. You know, that gave me the tools that I needed to, you know, really go in there and tackle, you know, any challenge that I had because, you know, ultimately, you know, if I if I can get over, you know, this adjustment in my vision, you know, if I can learn to, you know, gain that independence back, you know, there’s nothing I can’t do in the professional setting. And, you know, that’s what they taught me.

Dean Thompson: 21:47 

If you could do the last year or two over again outside of Restore Your Sight, which I know you’d love to do, I know I would as well. What would you do, what would you have done differently?

Joannah Harris: 21:58 

And I was like, give me that computer chip in my eye. Right. I was like, I’ll take the 3D printed one, you know? But I think, you know, if I had it to do over again, you know, I think really it would be. You know, connecting, I think, with NSITE a little bit sooner.

And, you know, really kind of working, you know, to kind of better understand kind of my career goals and sort of where I think the market is going in terms of jobs. Because ultimately, you know, kind of where I wanted to go, you know, with data science, you know, wasn’t as viable of a career as where I ended up in digital accessibility. And, you know, once I kind of realized that, that there was more opportunity with that digital accessibility, you know, I was able to actually, you know, latch on and get more professional experience. And so, you know, it started with some small opportunities like, you know, internships and, you know, some freelance sort of work with kind of Amazon and Bosch, you know, and ultimately, you know, by gaining more and more experience, you know, I was able to kind of slowly, you know, open the door and get into the field that I’m in right now.

Dean Thompson: 23:26 

Let’s talk about what you’re doing right now. You don’t have a single job. You’re doing two, two part time gigs. I understand right now.

Joannah Harris: 23:32

That’s right. Yeah. So, you know, working that gig economy, right? Yeah. But you know, but it’s been, you know, a really good opportunity for me to, you know, develop that skill set and, you know, kind of take that opportunity to kind of learn and grow in the professional setting.

And so I actually currently have two part time jobs. So I’m working. I’m contracted through Onward search with Kathy Sherry. And I’m working with level access to do work in digital accessibility. And so for that particular position, I’m using my skills with Zoomtext and with Dragon, Naturally Speaking, to do usability testing and to do manual audits as well as validation testing. And kind of the other part time job that I have is working with Dell.

And so that just started recently as of September. And so, you know, I’m working with Dell to use my skills with the screen reader side. So with Jaws and Nvidia to perform testing. And so essentially we are working with internal Dell websites. And so things that are kind of internal to that Dell network and doing kind of testing for it for them.

Dean Thompson: 25:04

You. I’m not going to try and set you up here as the icon that I think you might be, but if you could talk to and you hopefully are talking to a few hundred people in the same boat as you are right now, what would you say to them? What encouragement would you give them, or would you give them encouragement? What would you give me? A little speech, you’d say, if you bumped into somebody who said, man, I’m at the low point of my life or my career, what would you say to that man or woman?

Joannah Harris: 25:26

Oh, I’ve been there. I know how you feel. And boy, does it suck, you know? But don’t let that get you. Don’t let that define you, because that’s not who you are.

You know, you have, you know, a lot of potential and you’ve got a lot of great skills and talents that you can bring to an employer. Don’t forget that, because,you know, that’s something that you need to speak to. And, you know, be tenacious, you know, pursue your goals. And, you know, sometimes don’t be afraid to, you know, change your trajectory because, you know, you might have sort of, you know, one set path that you want to go down in terms of, you know, a career. But, you know, if you kind of step outside of that comfort zone, you know, take yourself off of, you know, the sidewalk and go on that hiking trail, you know, you might find that there’s, you know, a whole world of, you know, opportunity that you didn’t realize.

And, you know, maybe it’s just right around the corner and you don’t know it. So, you know, sometimes do something a little different.

Dean Thompson: 26:44  

Very cool. If folks want to get in touch with you, is there a way they can reach you directly? You’d like to.

Joannah Harris: 26:50

Yeah, I’d be more than happy to, you know, talk with anybody who needs a little bit of advice. If you would like to connect, I’m on LinkedIn, so Joannah Harris LinkedIn. I’m the one with the masters from Hopkins. And you can find me. And I’d be more than happy just to, you know, set aside some time out of my busy schedule to, you know, to chat.

Dean Thompson: 27:13  

That’s what. Joannah, this has been terrific. I thank you ever so much for the time, especially at the crack of dawn in California. But thanks and have a great holiday. Okay.

Joannah Harris: 27:21 

Yeah. Thank you so much, Dean. I, you know, really appreciate the opportunity to just be here and, you know, kind of open up, you know, the eyes for other stuff. You know, what it’s like to be visually impaired. Because ultimately we are just like everybody else.

We just see things a little bit differently.

Dean Thompson: 27:39

Thank you.

Outro: 27:40

Thank you for listening to the Heard & Empowered podcast. Please make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more information, visit heardandempowered.org. That’s heardandempowered.org. Join us again next time.