Jonathan: If you hire somebody that has the right background and motivation, you’re likely to be more successful than hiring somebody from the general population because, guess what? You know we have NSITE’s backing, you have the training they’ve received, and you’ve got their motivation, which I’ve found to be the biggest differentiator out there.

Welcome to the Heard & Empowered podcast presented by National Industries for the Blind. You’re not just a listener here, you’re a catalyst for change. Whether you’re blind, visually impaired or an ally, this is your ultimate resource for building a fulfilling career and an enriching life. We’re on a mission to shift perceptions, open hearts and minds and unlock unparalleled job opportunities for the BVI community. Ready to be heard and empowered? Let’s welcome our host, Dr. Hoby Wedler.

Hoby: Please excuse any blemishes in today’s audio that may have been caused by technical difficulties while recording. I assure you, the content is pure gold.

Hello, and welcome back to the Heard & Empowered podcast. Thank you so much to our listener base for all of your love and support. We really appreciate you. We appreciate you coming back every time, following our show, subscribing to it, downloading it. And if you haven’t already done so, please give us a five-star review and enjoy our episodes, comment on them. Let us know what you want to hear more of, because we’re all here for the same goal.

The goal is to show the world that blind and visually impaired folks are amazing employees. There are amazing opportunities out there in this country for us. And we are here to support the blind and visually impaired community, and essentially to show anyone who has any doubt in the ability of what a blind person can do, that anything is possible with the right mindset and the right attitude.

And someone who exemplifies all of our mission and goal with the show, with the Heard & Empowered podcast, is someone who you heard from way back when we started, Dr. Jonathan Lucus. Welcome to the show.

Jonathan: Thank you. And thanks for having me back.

Hoby: Oh, it’s great to have you back. So you are the director of NSITE, right? Which is a program of NIB, National Industries for the Blind. Can you tell us, first of all, what is NSITE?

Jonathan: NSITE is a national organization focused on providing career training and upward mobility for people who are blind and visually impaired. And our goal is to create opportunities through state-of-the-art training that’s accessible to folks in a variety of fields and then help them, once they receive this training, get into the job market.

Hoby: And what does NSITE, N-S-I-T-E, stand for?

Jonathan: Nothing, it’s not an acronym. It’s simply a shortened version of the word insight, I-N-S-I-G-H-T. And it’s sort of a play on the business we provide, right? How can we provide insight to folks who are looking –

Hoby: Who don’t have sight.

Jonathan: Yeah, right. Both who have eyesight and don’t understand the talent that they’re missing out on if they’re hiring people, but also for the blind and visually impaired community, providing them insight on how to enter the US workforce effectively.

Hoby: That’s incredible. So you have had a career prior to arriving at NSITE. Can you tell us a little bit about your career and sort of how you came to NIB and how you sort of found your home at NSITE?

Jonathan: Absolutely. I spent over a decade being a subject matter expert on refugee resettlement in the United States and globally. And really then is when I started to focus on workforce development because it became such a crucial element in somebody’s integration, whether it’s here in the United States or Europe, into society is through their jobs, gaining a career, being financially stable.

And so after 10 years of doing that work around the globe, I got into the disability world through supporting people with significant disabilities like autism, fragile X, and a multitude of other disabilities. And after five years of doing that on a national scale here in the States, I was asked to come over to NIB to start what is now NSITE.

Hoby: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. That’s awesome. And I really appreciate that. And just the fact that you came into this area through wanting to support people and wanting to help people out. And here you are really creating jobs in and outside the AbilityOne® Program for folks who are among us in the blind and visually impaired community.

One of the topics that we discuss a lot on Heard & Empowered is how nonprofit agencies supported by National Industries for the Blind, and those are basically the 100 or so agencies who not only train folks who are blind or visually impaired how to live independently, how to travel, how to use technology, how to cook for themselves, clean house, you know, all the important skills that we all need to live a wonderful and fulfilling and independent life.

And then over half of those agencies through what’s called the AbilityOne Program, which you’ve all heard a lot about, I won’t go into detail on today, provide jobs either in manufacturing or call centers or in government contract management. So we know a lot about that and we’ve had a lot of great discussions, deep discussions about that.

But what NSITE does that I really want to spend today’s conversation focused on, is you provide opportunities outside the AbilityOne Program for folks in our community who want to work in Corporate America. Because if we look at the statistics, the unemployment rate of the blind and visually impaired community hovers right around 70%. Unemployed population is 70% of the population. That is a striking number and kind of a devastating one when you hear it and when you think about it.

So what I really want to think about is you guys at NSITE work every day, tirelessly, to lower the unemployment rate. To create more competitive jobs for folks who are blind and visually impaired. And you do that through a multitude of ways. I know that you have a job board, but just tell us a little bit about what you do to help people earn gainful employment outside the AbilityOne Program.

Jonathan: Yeah, you know, we look at this as a multi-pronged approach because there’s so many barriers that are in place. And most of those are attitudinal, competition, dealing with the general public who are going out there and getting trained and getting employed, that we have to really focus on attacking this from multiple angles. So this includes, as you mentioned, our job board, NSITE Connect. We have about 450 people who are blind or visually impaired who use that currently. I think on an annual basis 600 or 700, 800 applications are submitted for jobs that are on there.

It’s also a way for us to connect to these people. So we have staff who follow up with them and have phone calls and understand what their desires are, what their backgrounds are, and help them move into either a training course or prepare them to go into the workforce through our workforce development department. So that’s one angle.

The other angle is educating the employers out there. So I do a lot of public speaking around the country, talking to employers about the benefits of hiring people who are blind and visually impaired, helping them understand how to access talent. But also learning about what the company’s needs are and what they’re looking for so we can come back and add that knowledge to our training repertoire.

The third sort of piece is I always tell my staff, and I might have mentioned this in the first episode, that we are sort of ambassadors of hope. So how do we really help the blind and visually impaired community understand that anything’s possible and to live their dreams? And one of the ways we do that is through our entrepreneurial program where we’re helping people start their own businesses in a wide array of companies and ideas.

And so if you marry all that together, hopefully we can make a dent in this unemployment rate. And that’s not something that is a short-term goal, this is something that we’re striving to make substantial change from how people are supported at the state level to how employers are embracing this population.

Hoby: That’s incredible. And what an awesome trifecta approach to really trying to lower that unemployment rate.

I want to just sort of take these in order. With the job board, how do you find the folks who have their resumes up on the job board? How do you go about sort of recruiting them and making sure that what they’re telling the world is stuff that is competitive, that the world wants to hear, and really maintaining those resumes?

Jonathan: We take a strictly business approach to this, meaning that it’s no different than having a Subway or a Starbucks in the corner of the street where you live. You know, we’ve got to be ubiquitous. We’ve got to be able to reach people where they are in a multitude of geographic and social areas. And so we’re constantly using social media to reach out to folks where they are, not expecting them to come to us.

But we also work through state agencies to help spread the word.

Hoby: Commission for the blind, departments of rehab.

Jonathan: Exactly, departments of rehab and getting the word out about here is a useful free tool for folks to use. And our goal is to continue that sort of mantra and the communications. And it’s not one time and you’re done. It’s constantly communicating these resources that we have through all these channels.

Hoby: Do you ever pull from some of the non-profit agencies? You know, folks who go through and get the training to live a successful life, kind of as we were talking about earlier. Do you ever find those folks interested in work in corporate America and get them on the job board?

Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. So that’s one great aspect about our agencies and the AbilityOne Program. It’s a way to start building your career. People do matriculate up through these agencies as well from maybe a floor position into a front office position. But we know we want to provide another resource. So that’s definitely communicated internally to these agencies and we always have people on our job board who are maybe looking for other opportunities or just other training. So they come in and they come and join us.

Hoby: Right. No, that’s wonderful.

Moving on to the second prong of your wonderful three-prong approach, looking at finding employers willing to work with people who happen to be blind or visually impaired. One of the conversations that we’ve had a lot on the show before is about people who try to apply for jobs in the corporate world. And they go to the interview, everything’s great until they are seen and people know that this is a blind person and they get nervous about that.

You know, when you go out and you do public speaking and you talk to, I’m sure, HR professionals around the country, how do you like to find the folks who you know are going to be accepting and excited and embracing?

Jonathan: That’s a great question and I think it comes from, one, a lot of research. So looking at these companies before you ever speak to them and saying, “Okay, what is their DEI program? Do they have a DEI program? Is it strong? How do they usually hire?” Do they hire, you know, a lot of companies maybe hire from one or two universities for the positions that they routinely fill. Or are their hiring practices diversified, right? Are they looking at a multitude of locations for people? Because that’s going to bring a lot of insight into their willingness to hire people who are blind and visually impaired.

And then sort of the second part is having that conversation. And it starts with ROI. It doesn’t start with, “Hey, here’s a great person you should hire.” Here’s the business case.

Hoby: Right, the feel-good.

Jonathan: Yeah. I mean, the feel-good is sort of the precipitate, I think, of the mix of the chemistry. But the chemistry really is how we’re going to help that company better its bottom line. And that’s through bringing in people with a varied and unique lived experience who can take what they’ve learned just in overcoming obstacles, what they’ve learned in how they’ve been able to get training, receive training, learn, and put that on the job site can be super beneficial to a company. So, we talk a lot about that.

And then, of course, the third part is companies sometimes do have certain quotas when it comes to their hiring and DEI. And so we want to make sure that we are a viable candidate to help them fill those needs as well.

Hoby: Right. Helping them fill those needs of, hey, we need to hire three people with disabilities this year. If we can find jobs for three folks who are blind or visually impaired, more power to us.

I want to circle back to that ROI piece. You know, lived experiences is one part of it, but the truth is to be successful, and as someone who’s been completely blind since birth I’ll be the first to tell you that to be successful in the sighted world where we live, you have to work harder than your peers, right?

And I know this is true at NIB, this is true at all the nonprofit agencies, and it’s certainly true at NSITE. We don’t believe in handouts. We don’t believe in charity cases. Oh, hire this person because you’re a good Samaritan. Like you say, that’s the byproduct. The sort of storytelling and heroism of it is the byproduct of someone being actually good at what they do. But someone should be hired because they’re excellent at what they do, not because they happen to be blind or visually impaired.

So how do you help your folks who you work with in our community who are job seekers really show the fact that they are the right candidate for the position? And then on the flip side of that, and the reason I’m asking this question sort of as we talk about your work to find, you know, recruit potential employers, how can we show those employers, and I know this is sort of a nebulous question, and I’m sorry about that, so we can kind of talk through it. But how can we show those employers that it’s not because this person is blind that they’re the best, they really are your best candidate?

Jonathan: Yeah, I don’t think it’s totally different than how anybody would approach trying to answer this question. Part of it is sales, right? So how do you market yourself? So one of the things we do is we partner with an organization called Accessibility Officer, and they help our program graduates utilize LinkedIn in a really effective manner. So that’s step one. How are you using the social media tools that are out there that get people jobs, get people recognized?

That’s one key element. How are you telling your story in a powerful way, and how are you connecting and building your networks? Because really in America in 2024, people get jobs through networking. Time and time again, it’s an employee referral that gets the job versus somebody applying cold from a website. And so one is how do we help people understand this, give them the skills to build those networks, to build their story.

But the other piece is our training programs, and we have a lot of Cisco and a lot of really industry-recognized training programs where it’s not something that, hey, NSITE thinks this is good, and NSITE thinks this person did well. They’ve got a certificate in their hand. They’ve gone through this industry-recognized credential, and that means that they are just as competitive as anyone else, right? And so that’s a huge, huge key.

And again, it goes back to hearing, really listening to employers and understanding what their desires are in an employee. And then helping our folks gain those skills, whether that’s a soft skill, you know, communication. We do a lot of communication classes. Or a hard skill in a specific industry. If you combine all that together, then there’s no question that person is just as talented as somebody else.

The great thing is if we have that relationship with a company like at Bristol-Myers Squibb or somebody like that, Amazon, then they’re going to rely on us. And they tend to believe, hey, if NSITE says this person’s a good candidate, let’s take a look.

Hoby: And that’s an amazing resource that you can provide to the folks who you work with, the job seekers, is that you have a reputation. And if someone graduates from one of your programs, they now have a reputation because of your name. It’s just as simple as a university, right? If you graduate from Harvard, people know you had a hard time getting in there, or maybe didn’t have a hard time, but it took accomplishment to get in there. And then you succeeded and graduated, so there must be something there. It’s the same deal.

On that note, Jonathan, tell me about some of the trainings that you guys offer and the certifications. Because to me, you can get a master’s degree, you can get a PhD, you can do whatever you want, but if you really want to be a guru, and we actually chatted with Nina Bektic, who’s an amazing, probably one of the world’s best project managers who happens to be blind. And she had a quote, you all probably remember, that in order to be a guru at whatever you do, you have to have some sort of certification, some sort of accolade in that area, so that people know that you have those skill sets.

And this is one of the things that I think is so special about NSITE, is you guys offer a multitude of certifications, of trainings and certifications. Tell us about those and how those can unlock amazing job opportunities.

Jonathan: The foundation for our approach is to create stackable training. So what we don’t want to happen is somebody come in, take a class or a course, get through it, and that’s the end of their learning experience, because they need to stay competitive once they are competitive, right?

And so, stackable learning means that they can come in, and I’ll give you an example. Our IT courses start out with IT certificate programs, they get a Google certificate at the end. They come back for the next hardest course, which is our Cisco IT Essentials. That’s a 10 to 12 week course, they complete it. Maybe they come back for our Cyber Security or Cyber Ops course, which is another 8 to 10 weeks. And then they’re building their resume.

Then they might go get a job, and they say, “Well, you know, I want to go even further.” So we have two longer range courses. We have a Cisco Certified Support Technician, it’s a 26 week course, but they get that Cisco certification at the end. And then if they really want to knock the socks off an employer, they come back and get their Cisco Certified Networking Associate certification, which is 40 weeks long. And again, they’re building these skills up.

And that’s just in one of our fields. We do the same thing in sourcing, we do the same thing in customer service sales courses. And now then the other side is we understand that companies are not just looking for technical skills, they’re looking for people who are going to be great leaders, great communicators, problem solvers. And so we have a whole business leaders program that was sort of a legacy program for NIB that we’ve added a lot more courses to that as well. We’ve partnered with –

Hoby: Tell me about that one.

Jonathan: Yeah, so we’re doing all kinds of things. We’ve partnered with Blanchard, which is, if anybody knows, Blanchard is a world-renowned leadership development organization.

Hoby: And very prestigious.

Jonathan: Very prestigious. And so why are we recreating the wheel when they have in the market, people in the brand name, we just apply it in an accessible manner to our folks. And so we partner with them, but we have foundational skills and business basics. We have leadership development courses that people can take. And then we’re adding more and more to those as time goes on.

And it’s not something you come in and take two weeks and you’re done. This is over a course of 12, 18, 24 months that you’re learning these skills, you’re coming back while you’re in the workplace and applying what you’re learning to your job. And hopefully it’s positioning you to become a better manager, a better leader, and can help you matriculate up the career ladder.

Hoby: And sometimes even up to executive leadership teams. It’s amazing.

Jonathan: Absolutely. We have folks who’ve historically gone through these programs, are now CEOs at some of our agencies and executives outside in the private sector.

Hoby: That’s absolutely incredible. I love that. And it just goes to show that you put in the time, you put in the work, you’re passionate, success happens. It works out that way. We live in a capitalist society, which, for better or for worse, commands success and commands hard work and results.

And I think just listening to you talk about these opportunities in technology, in sales, customer service, in leadership. I mean, there’s so much amazing opportunity here for people to not only start out their career, but grow their career and climb the ladder. And I’m sure a lot of our sighted listeners are saying, “Man, I wish there was an NSITE for sighted people. Jeez, it’s an amazing resource.”

Tell me a little bit about how folks, when they go through these courses, when they go through these certifications, can sort of stay afloat financially. Do a lot of your folks who go through the NSITE program and graduate from the fundamentals of the program, go out and get work. Do a lot of folks hold jobs while taking your courses?

Jonathan: Yeah, many do. So, first and foremost, we don’t charge individuals directly for our courses. Most of the time, we go through the company or the organization they’re working for or through vocational rehabilitation to pay for it. So, one, we’re not adding that financial burden to them while they’re in the courses.

Secondly, many of our folks are working full-time or part-time. Some aren’t, but a lot of folks are working and looking to make that transition. So, we hold our, most of our courses are in the evening, early evening so, it doesn’t conflict with their work schedules. We allow some flexibility. We all know sometimes there’s dates that we can’t, you know, we have something that we have to be at and we can’t be in class. And so, we provide that one-on-one support.

If they happen to miss one week’s class, we’ll call them up, we’ll meet with them and help them catch back up. And the goal is to synchronize this with their lives and not make it, make it as less burdensome as possible.

Hoby: Are the courses typically online, completely online, or is there an instructor who’s teaching them?

Jonathan: We have some asynchronous courses, but the majority of our courses, 90% or 95% are online synchronous courses, meaning there’s an instructor who’s been trained to teach accessible, in an accessible manner. And then we have staff who are support staff. So they’re helping folks during the class and maybe answering questions through chat, but also reaching out in between class time. We have open office hours, we reach out to people directly and help them with homework and help them with understanding critical components of the course to make sure they’re successful while they’re with us.

Hoby: Fascinating. And such an important thing. Looking to sort of some of the jobs that people are landing as they go through your courses and understand the opportunities out there, what are some, just thinking about your time with NSITE, you know, your past, your recent past, what are some jobs that you can recall people landing after graduating from some of these training courses?

Jonathan: Yeah, it’s wide and varied. So, anything from HR generalists to staffing coordinators to sourcing specialists. We’ve had financial analysts. We’ve had senior sales associates. We’ve had folks go work for Cisco as certified Cisco networking associates and those types of cyber jobs across the board. Contract specialists, IT clerks, customer service specialist, legal consultants. The list goes on and on.

Hoby: I love it. I love it. And you know what I think is, I want to harken back to mention of Cisco and the fact that there is a Cisco networking specialist course. Oftentimes people who graduate from that course go get jobs for the very company that offered that course, Cisco.

Jonathan: Yeah, that’s one great thing about having a partnership. We have this partnership with a lot of organizations. What better buy-in can you get when you’re using their product to train somebody, they get that certification? And Cisco is a great example where they stay in contact with us. So they’re learning about our candidates. And it’s an easy sell when somebody does a great job in CCNA and the folks who provided that software and that training said, “Hey, if they got through that and did that well, we know it because it’s our course. And so, we will hire them.”

Hoby: We know they’re going to thrive. CCNA stands for?

Jonathan: It stands for Certified Cisco Networking Associate.

Hoby: Got it. Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, and these people, you mentioned this networking associate course and job a few times now. What are sort of the quick explanation of what they do?

Jonathan: Gosh, from a non-IT guy here. That particular job is you’re basically running somebody’s system. So everything’s connected peripherally in somebody’s office these days. Sometimes you’re dealing with off-site data storage somewhere and you’re dealing with all the peripheral machines in the office. This person has the ability to manage that and look and solve problems when things aren’t connecting well, there’s issues out there. So it’s looking at both the hardware and the software. And again, we have cybersecurity. So, it’s also looking at potential threats that may be coming into an organization electronically.

Hoby: Jonathan, it’s so interesting. You know, the story you told about the fact that Cisco didn’t necessarily believe in what we were doing, didn’t think that blind people could do what you told them we could, and then you kind of proved them wrong. Not that I like proving people wrong, but isn’t it satisfying when you can show someone, hey, maybe you didn’t think this was possible and now look what we’re doing.

Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s cathartic. But I think more importantly, sometimes it takes looking at something from a different angle to see that it’s possible. You know, I was doing some work for SAP and one of their executives said innovation comes from the edges, and they were hiring people with disabilities. And I didn’t quite understand what she meant by that at the beginning.

And then sort of a day later, I was sort of pontificating on that statement. And I realized what she meant was, especially for SAP, they had a very formulaic approach on how they hired. A certain degree from a certain university, right? And they just continued to do that. But they didn’t get a lot of innovation that way. They got a lot of people who are very smart, very capable of doing, you know, A, B, and C, but they needed to do D, E, and F.

And so bringing that back to Cisco was maybe we were the catalyst to say, hey, sometimes you have to go to D, E, and F. You have to look at it from that angle. And the only way to do that is thinking differently than you thought before. And luckily it worked out and it’s been a really great program for us.

Hoby: Well, and the truth is, when we think differently about something, when we have to live in the world differently, we have to be problem solvers and we have to be innovative. So it just goes to show. And that’s why we’ve used the acronym, you and I both a few times, D, E, and I, which is diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is why I always say the best team and the team that’s going to find the most innovative and unique and, frankly, profitable solutions is the one with the most diverse opinions and the most widespread lived experience.

I want to circle over to something, sort of the third prong of your approach briefly before we finish up here, which is the entrepreneurial arm. And this is very important to me personally, because I’m an entrepreneur with, I guess, four companies now. And it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge to raise money. It’s a challenge to get out there and get work. Tell me about sort of how you help people who have a business idea, because we all have an idea and we all know that 80% of, and I’m sure this is true, you guys see a lot of this too, but 80% of a good business idea that’s turned into a business ends up quite frankly failing.

So how do you help people go from the dreaming idea phase to the nuts and bolts of, let’s do this, let’s actually make this profitable?

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, I think for us is we take this big, overwhelming idea and break it out into components, right? So it’s manageable. Like how do you, you got this great, you think this great idea to sell this or provide this type of service, right? And how do you get there? You think, man, it’s overwhelming. I’ve got to come up with a name. I’ve got to come up with a big business concept. I’ve got to write the business plan. I’ve got to develop a customer base. I’ve got to make sure I have the right training.

And so we decided, let’s just take this a step at a time for people. Let’s make sure they, one, have the ability to use technology, whether that’s the Microsoft Office suite of products, whether that’s using assistive technology, whether that’s using something like a sales platform, whether that’s Salesforce, and get those skills first.

All the while, we’re helping them with the business plan, right? What is your idea? Why is your idea unique? Why is it sellable? Helping them think through those critical components. So then we talk about sales and we talk about communication again and help them get through those pieces. And then on the far end, it’s like, okay, now it’s your time to come in. And a lot of times we’ll hold a session for them pitching their business plan to us and to experts.

We have a gentleman, his name is Dean Thompson, he’s a blind TV producer. And so he is a career mentor for our folks. He’s been through that before, much like you, understanding the pitfalls and understanding where the work needs to take place.

Hoby: Thank you so much for talking about all the different components for entrepreneurs. You’re talking about building the business as you go. Building the skills, the Salesforce skills, hard sales skills, communication, all the while helping someone write their business plan and build these things out and drive something from an idea over to a concept.

One of the hardest things in business is you have an idea, you’re brilliant, you have a great business plan, everything looks good, but you have a really hard time raising money. And are there organizations, are there venture capital groups that you know who like to fund folks with disabilities or how does that work?

Jonathan: Well, we’ve started to tap into that a little bit. You know, that’s an area that we need to grow. We’ve had some individual investors who have shown some interest in funding some of our folks. But the other piece is helping them connect to companies and organizations who will buy their products, who they know they can start building a customer base. And that’s crucially important.

Hoby: Well, thank you. No, I think that’s incredible and such an important resource to offer folks.

Jonathan, our time is just about up but I really just want to know, what would you tell an employer? What would you tell someone who is listening to this and they’re on the fence about, gosh, I’ve thought about hiring someone with a disability. I’ve thought about hiring someone who’s blind or visually impaired. Hoby keeps telling me that it’s possible. All the guests keep telling me that it’s possible. But I’m still just on the fence. What would you tell them to go over that barrier and just make it happen and get it done? If they’re thinking about it, how can they just do it?

Jonathan: Well, I think that’s it. I mean, just do it. I hate to be using a Nike slogan necessarily, but it’s about understanding that there is no real risk. It’s only a reward. If you hire somebody that has the right background and motivation, you’re likely to be more successful than hiring somebody from the general population. Because guess what? We have NSITE’s backing. You have the training they received. And you’ve got their motivation, which is, I found to be the biggest differentiator out there.

Hoby: I love that. Let’s do it. Let’s employ more people day after day after day.

Finally, Jonathan, how can people get a hold of you if they want to reach out? What are some of the best ways to get in touch? Because I’m sure both job seekers and employers are going to find this inspiring and are going to want to work with NSITE to build opportunities on either side of the board.

Jonathan: Absolutely. So come to our website, nsite.org. It’s N-S-I-T-E dot org. Follow us on Facebook. We are on X as well, @Get_NSITE, and also on LinkedIn at NSITE. So find us there and learn more about what we’re doing and how we can help you as an employer or as a future talent looking for additional training or job support.

Hoby: Thank you so much for your time on the show. You’ve been so inspiring to me. And the work that you’re doing to lower the unemployment rate, get jobs for people all over corporate America and beyond, whether you’re an entrepreneur, you want to go to work for Cisco, whatever the case may be. Your work is undeniably incredible and you’re changing lives every day. So thank you for that. And I hope to have you on again really soon.

Jonathan: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

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