Lise: I certainly wasted a lot of time not knowing how to have a career.

Hoby: Sure.

Lise: Not knowing that a career was possible. And so if I could wiggle my nose and go back in time, I probably would have tried to jump in with both feet and not have spent so much time being afraid of what darkness might look like, and walking more towards the light, which certainly has been this program and every opportunity that’s been provided to me.

Welcome to the Heard & Empowered podcast presented by National Industries for the Blind. You’re not just a listener here, you’re a catalyst for change. Whether you’re blind, visually impaired or an ally, this is your ultimate resource for building a fulfilling career and an enriching life. We’re on a mission to shift perceptions, open hearts and minds and unlock unparalleled job opportunities for the BVI community. Ready to be heard and empowered? Let’s welcome our host, Dr. Hoby Wedler.

Hoby: Happy Wednesday, folks, and welcome back to the Heard & Empowered podcast. We’re so excited to have you here today. I want to thank you, first and foremost, for spreading the love, for giving us, if you think we’re worthy, a five-star review if you haven’t already done so. Just telling anyone that you think should know about how blind people can be gainfully employed and happy doing what they do. Anyone that you think could benefit from this show, please send it their way. Or if you know people that are just interested in how different groups of folks get work done, send it their way.

But most importantly, I want to thank you for listening every week and subscribing and, like I say, spreading the love around of this show that we do because we’re really passionate about it and we care so deeply about employment for folks who are blind and visually impaired.

Today’s guest is someone you’ve heard from before on one of our very first episodes, but I’m absolutely thrilled to welcome back to the set, Lise Pace. Lise, welcome.

Lise: Hi, Hoby. How are you?

Hoby: I’m great, it’s good to have you here.

Lise: It’s so great to be back.

Hoby: So we’re recording this live from the 2024 NIB Public Policy Forum in Washington, D.C., and last time we recorded live at the Expo and Leadership Conference of NIB, also here in D.C., so it seems to be a tradition now.

Lise, tell me a little bit of where you currently are working and what you do.

Lise: I work at Bosma Enterprises in Indianapolis, Indiana. We are a NPA (nonprofit agency) that provides all of the exam and surgical gloves to VA facilities.

Hoby: Wow.

Lise: My current role there is that I’m the executive vice president, so I am responsible for our customer service department, marketing, PR, communications, business development, and then our statewide programs. And on the side, I do a little work in public policy.

Hoby: Awesome. Well, this is great to have you and to hear your take on public policy and advocacy as it pertains to NIB because that’s what we’re here working on today. But you shared it in just this absolutely beautiful way last time, but if you don’t mind reminding folks, fairly briefly, of your journey to vision loss and your journey to Bosma.

Lise: I was diagnosed in my early 20s, relatively unceremoniously. I went to what I thought was a routine eye appointment, thought I would get glasses, go home and live my life with slightly better vision. And what I found out at that appointment was that I had a disease called retinitis pigmentosa and that glasses would not resolve the problem, and that over my lifetime, I would go blind. So it was pretty jarring news for an afternoon eye appointment.

Hoby: Right. Right. But eventually you found your way to Bosma and it seems like you’re thriving and loving life there.

Lise: I did. In July I will celebrate 15 years with the organization. I actually started there as a volunteer, leaving my first career in banking and finance, not really being able to see well enough to do that work. Didn’t know that there were resources available that probably now would have allowed me to do so, but I did find this lovely place, Bosma Enterprises, and I was able to reclaim my life and my career.

Hoby: Love it. Love it. In a way where you not only survive, but you totally thrive. I think it’s awesome.

Lise: I did. It was by chance with a little Google search that they were the third listing that came up three miles from my house. And I started, again, as a volunteer and then took over their volunteer program. And I believe that over the last 12 years, I’ve had just as many jobs there.

Hoby: I love it. I think that’s fantastic. Let’s focus a little bit here, move our conversation a little bit towards advocacy and the work of basically being advocates for the amazing work done by NIB and the associated nonprofit agencies. And as advocates, we really are sort of leaders and voices for so many thousands of either people who are employed for the nonprofit agencies or folks who are blind and visually impaired who are potential employees that aren’t yet working with us.

But tell me about your journey with public policy and how you got into this line of work with Bosma, or for Bosma.

Lise: When I started at Bosma, I heard people talking about policy. There wasn’t really anybody at the agency that was devoted to it. And I thought, this is something I’m relatively interested in. And within the same sort of period of time, NIB came out with this great program called the Advocates for Leadership and Employment. And they were seeking people to participate in this program with that interest in policy that I had and wanting to make a difference, that was always something that had been really important and instilled in me since I was a child. I thought, I’m blind, it’s likely I’m going to lose more sight rather than gain sight, and can I make an impact?

And so when this opportunity came around for me to participate in this program, I was all in.

Hoby: Wow.

Lise: Yeah.

Hoby: Wow. And were you interested in advocacy before joining Bosma?

Lise: Again, as a child I always was a child that would question and always sort of want to fight for the underdog and be able to, again, have impact. I don’t know that I correlated at that time that that was public policy, but it certainly transitioned to that.

Hoby: Love it. Yeah. No, and it really feels good when we cannot only work at an agency that’s making a huge difference in so many lives, but advocate for all the agencies doing that work.

Lise: And I really thought that the program that NIB was putting forward was innovative. It was taking people who were being served by the program and really putting them in a position to advocate for themselves, which is so very important. It wasn’t having people advocate for us, it was us learning how to advocate for ourselves. And with that comes powers.

Hoby: It does. And powers in and outside the workplace when we can advocate for ourselves.

Lise: Right. And I say powers because it’s almost superpowers.

Hoby: It is. It totally is. That can be added to our list of gifts when we do it a lot.

Lise: That’s right.

Hoby: Was the format in the first cohort that you were in similar to what we’ve been talking about over the past couple of episodes where it’s a two-year training program?

Lise: I don’t know that it was two years back then. It may have only been one, but it may have been two. But certainly the program has evolved, changed, and grown to being this small little cohort, the little engine that could, and grown into what it is today.

Hoby: Right. That’s fantastic. Are you joined here by others from your cohort who have stuck with the advocacy program?

Lise: I absolutely am. And Bosma today has a new advocate that’s just started with the program in this group.

Hoby: So exciting. So incredibly exciting. Wow.

Lise: Yes, and he’s all in. Very, very excited to become an advocate.

Hoby: That’s terrific. How many appointments do you have on the Hill this Wednesday?

Lise: We have seven.

Hoby: Oh, nice. Okay.

Lise: Bosma Enterprises provides statewide programs, so we have a footprint throughout Indiana. And so we meet with most of the delegation when we’re out here.

Hoby: Sure. No, I think that’s phenomenal. So two senators essentially and five representatives.

Lise: That’s right. There’s a few that we’ve met with before and a few that we’ll meet with after. We actually have 11 members in our delegation, but we’re sure meeting with a lot of them while we’re here.

Hoby: That’s fantastic. And tell me in your own words what the ask is this year.

Lise: The ask is for a 1% utilization of AbilityOne® products and services by the Department of Defense.

Hoby: Wow. What I like about that ask is that it’s, I mean, it’s a big ask, but it’s very simple and it’s easy for people to understand exactly what it is that we’re going for.

Lise: It absolutely is. And in years past we’ve had maybe a couple of things that we’ve asked for. We’re laser focused on this because it’s so very important to grow employment.

Hoby: 100%. Tell me what the difference would be once this is mandated versus the current status quo.

Lise: Currently DoD spends about 0.55% with AbilityOne of their annual spend. This would increase it to 1%. We believe that this could create 20,000 jobs or more.

Hoby: Wow.

Lise: So the impact on employment is huge.

Hoby: And how will it change revenue for all the agencies? Not one in particular, but –

Lise: Certainly it will grow revenue, but what we always like to talk about and what is most important to all the NPAs within the network is really that job growth.

Hoby: Sure. No, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense and I fully support and understand that direction, because that’s what we’re all after is growing the job opportunities and increasing the, yeah, just increasing the overall opportunities afforded to folks who are blind or visually impaired.

Lise: That’s right. And this really does it, and without a lot of impact to the customer. In fact, this is something that the customer has asked for. It’s something that the Department of Defense supports. So we think it’ll grow jobs. The Department of Defense wants this. They want to support AbilityOne in this way. So we just need to do it. Let’s get that in the NDAA.

Hoby: Let’s get it done. NDAA is National Defense –

Lise: Authorization Act.

Hoby: Authorization Act, right, which is that must-pass bill that has a lot of these types of asks within it. Correct?

Lise: It does, because it’s the only thing that tends to move in Congress right now. So yeah, you have to be able to –

Hoby: Let’s get it in the NDAA.

Lise: That’s right.

Hoby: Yeah. Just looking at what this means, what 1% would mean, DoD agreed to it a while ago. Why do you think they’re not actually spending 1%? Is there a reason for that? I mean, I know it’s important to make these things law so that it’s a requirement, but I’m just interested in your thoughts as to why they’re not hitting that 1% right now.

Lise: There is a voluntary pledge from DoD to go ahead and support the program. But what we find, and I think in our day-to-day or at the DoD what is measured is what people pay attention to. And so if we have a goal that is statutory, it’s something that people will have eyes on. It’s something that they’ll want to meet. And we think with that comes a lot of transparency, with that comes a lot of awareness. And so having it statutorily mandated, that’s a hard word to say, is really, really critical.

Hoby: Got it. No, I get that. And it makes a lot of sense to me thinking about that and what you just said. Voluntary is voluntary. It’s a good start, but it’s voluntary.

Lise: And we believe that DoD, they’re certainly our best customer, they’re our largest and best customer and have been so supportive of the program.

Hoby: Totally, since 1938.

Lise: Since 1938. So it seems like a no-brainer.

Hoby: And what I always think about or can’t help but think about is that DoD is definitely the largest customer of the nonprofit agencies, but there are plenty of other federal agencies that also buy goods and services and something like this might make them consider, we should think about a 1% spend for our budgets too.

Lise: Absolutely.

Hoby: Yeah.

Lise: If we do this with DoD and there’s success with it, certainly I would believe that other federal agencies would want to model something that’s successful. And many of those agencies rely on us currently. Bosma, for example, is the sole source supplier of exam and surgical gloves to the VA, and we have a really great relationship with them. And so just another demonstration of another agency being served by the great AbilityOne Program.

Hoby: And they’re not, so the VA is absolutely not the DoD. So that’s a totally different revenue source.

Lise: It is.

Hoby: Yeah.

Lise: It is. And creating a lot of employment.

Hoby: Totally. Do you guys sell any of your examined surgical gloves in the private sector?

Lise: We do.

Hoby: Okay. Also to consumers?

Lise: We do.

Hoby: Very good.

Lise: I would say, again, our largest customer is certainly the Department of Veterans Affairs, but we do have some other sales to other sources.

Hoby: No, that’s fantastic. You’ve got five minutes, or a short amount of time, with a representative or a senator and we want to, you and I know because we live it and breathe it every day, we know what this means to our community. They may very well not fully understand what this means and what the magnitude is of, okay, it’s simply a percent, like the 20,000 jobs figure is a really good one, but how do you convey to them without a shadow of a doubt that this is hugely important?

Lise: This legislation and its insertion into the NDAA is critically important because what we know is today there’s a 70% unemployment rate amongst people who are blind or have significant disabilities.

Hoby: Wow.

Lise: So there’s just not employment out there for people. What we can do is have a statutory goal for DoD, that would increase employment by at least 20,000 jobs. Currently the AbilityOne Program employs 36,000 people who have disabilities. We could increase that or almost double it for this population that’s underserved. It’s simply a half a percent for DoD, and it’s something that the Department of Defense says that they want to do, and have voluntarily committed to doing it.

So for us, it’s a no-brainer. We deliver high quality products and services to the government and we want to do more of that.

Hoby: That’s a beautiful message and I think a very compelling one.

I know that Bosma is quite involved, not only on a federal level with public policy, but also at the state and local level. Can you share some of what you do at the state and local level when it comes to advocating for folks who are blind or visually impaired in Indiana?

Lise: Certainly. We have been very active with our general assembly. In fact, we were able to get a utilization goal in Indiana, a 3% utilization goal with our State Use Program.

Hoby: Really? Oh my gosh. What program is it, the state?

Lise: The State Use Program.

Hoby: Okay.

Lise: So it’s comparable to AbilityOne except at the state level.

Hoby: Right. So exciting.

Lise: Yeah. Over several years we were able to do that. And I guess what it taught me is certainly legislation and these policy moves are incremental. We didn’t get that all the first year that we tried to get it, but over three to five years we were able to get the state to, or get legislation passed through the general assembly to get that 3% utilization goal. And so last year was the first year that they had to do reporting and they hadn’t met that 3% goal, but we continue to work with the general assembly because, again, what gets measured is where people put their focus and we certainly saw that at the state level.

Hoby: Sure. No, that’s wonderful. And in Indianapolis proper, do you guys work with any of the municipal groups or the city government or anything to try to provide jobs to more blind folks?

Lise: We do. I serve on the Greater Indianapolis Progress Committee, which is a bipartisan mayoral advisory group. And so certainly always trying to push the needle about just general employment for people who have disabilities, certainly people who are blind.

Hoby: Fantastic.

Looking back to, or looking ahead to this week on Capitol Hill, what are you most excited about?

Lise: I’m really excited to take our new advocate. He is so very excited about going on the Hill and advocating for himself, advocating for employment of his peers. And to be able to take him on the Hill to see him do that and the power, the power that we have as people to be in the offices of our legislator, really, it’s awe-inspiring to me. Every time I go to the Hill, I’m just so grateful to be an American and have such access to our lawmakers.

Hoby: I’m so proud to be a part of this country as well, simply because we can go talk as citizens and make a difference in public policy.

Lise: We really can.

Hoby: It’s kind of amazing.

Lise: We really can. I participated in some legislation with the VA. Certainly, there were a lot of groups that are part of the NIB umbrella that worked on that legislation. But we actually, we got a law passed, an act of Congress.

Hoby: That’s so cool.

Lise: And so that’s a big deal.

Hoby: Tell me a little more about that.

Lise: Certainly. So there were two laws that conflicted. It certainly put at risk some of our work in the VA and our ability to employ people. And we needed to rectify that conflict. And so we started working with lawmakers. Again, it wasn’t just Bosma, it was a lot of other agencies that worked really hard. And we were able to get some legislation. It wasn’t perfect legislation, it was compromised legislation, but it protected a lot of jobs.

Hoby: That’s what counts. That’s what we’re here to do.

Lise: And again, legislation is incremental. This kind of policy work is incremental. It doesn’t always happen as quickly as we like. It took three years, but we got it done.

Hoby: Patience is rewarded, right?

Lise: Signed by Donald Trump in 2020.

Hoby: That is awesome. Were you there for the signing?

Lise: I was not. It was during Covid or the tail end of Covid, so darn it. Yeah.

Hoby: That would have been so exciting.

Lise: It would have been.

Hoby: Oh my gosh. Let’s look at, we come here for this amazing week and we engage people. How do you guys at Bosma, and how do you personally like to, as an advocate, keep the senators and men and women of Congress engaged all year?

Lise: It’s so important to keep them engaged all year.

Hoby: Yeah.

Lise: With the legislation 4920 that we just spoke of, you don’t want to be approaching your members of Congress when you need them. You want to be approaching them so that they’re familiar with your organization. They know and trust you so that when you call on them, they are able to help you pretty immediately. You’re not having to convince them that you’re a good organization, they already know that. Oftentimes they’ve toured your facility. You’ve gone to their office, we do a lot of district visits at Bosma.

Hoby: Sure.

Lise: So there’s so much pre-work before we even come out here to ask them to support legislation one time a year.

Hoby: Meaning you’ll do district visits with your representatives.

Lise: We will.

Hoby: When they’re home.

Lise: We will, or their staff.

Hoby: Okay. And will they ever come to Bosma?

Lise: All the time.

Hoby: Okay.

Lise: They do.

Hoby: Let’s talk a little bit about the impact when they are out on the floor and they see what’s happening. They really see that blind people are in this amazing position of employment and the work that they do to keep NIB at top of mind really pays off. What are some of the reactions when you see, for instance, a blind person shrink-wrapping a pallet and getting it ready on a forklift to go for shipping? What are some of the responses you get?

Lise: I think everyone from those people that are doing direct labor, so packaging, shipping, so that floor work that you talked to, all the way through we have several people that are in middle management who are blind or visually impaired. And then Jeff and I who are leading the organization who are blind or visually impaired. I think they’re really amazed at how normal our organizations look and how people who are blind are working in this very large manufacturing facility, and they’re doing it like any other manufacturing facility.

It doesn’t look any different to them. So I think what it does for them is it really normalizes blindness. But it also gives them pride in that we have this AbilityOne program that gives people opportunities, great opportunities, again, from that entry-level position to that production, to that middle manager, to executive leadership.

Hoby: Right. Well, and you can talk about the upward mobility that’s possible.

Lise: Right.

Hoby: You know, someone starts in one point and then moves their way up in the organization.

Lise: That’s right.

Hoby: And proves themselves to be, you know, I think the biggest misnomer here is that the agencies employ anyone. I mean, you have to be good at what you do to be employed and to be employable. And I think when our men and women of Congress and senators can come see this with their own eyes and be a part of it, it really increases the level of impact that we have when we come to the Hill once a year.

Lise: Bosma is very committed, and I think many of the other NPAs, to having standards.

Hoby: Yeah.

Lise: And we certainly make accommodations for people who are blind. That’s the work that we do, right? But everybody’s held to the same standard. Everybody’s held accountable and we’re a workplace of choice.

Hoby: Yes. That’s beautiful. Just a couple more questions for you as we move towards wrapping up here.

Lise: Sure.

Hoby: If you think about someone new to work at one of the agencies who’s interested in becoming an advocate but scared of the process and of actually sitting down and meeting with their representatives and sort of on the fence, what would you tell them? How would you encourage them?

Lise: NIB, through the Leadership and Employment Program, certainly holds your hand as you walk through something that’s very different for people, not something you’re exposed to or something that people do every day. But NIB has such an in-depth program that it really takes a lot of the fear factor.

I would also say, selfishly, I don’t know that I would be in the role that I am in today had it not been for NIB’s program. It really stretched me to travel to DC, to become comfortable speaking in public, speaking to members of Congress. You’re exposed to other leaders at NPAs. And so, for me, it really was a stepping stone to where I am today in my career. So I strongly encourage those people that have an interest in policy, for those people who want to be empowered to make change for people who are blind, being an advocate is it.

Hoby: Beautiful way to do it. Yeah. Thank you for that.

Well what do you think, if the 1% AbilityOne utilization by DoD passes what do you think in 5 to 10 years, the agency sort of landscape will look like? Do you think we’ll see the agencies increasing in size? I know we’ll see more people on the, you know, on the manufacturing floors and providing high quality services. But how do you think the landscape of the agencies overall will change?

Lise: What I love about this opportunity is really that employment growth. And what I see is that we’ll be able to certainly offer more jobs, but I believe that we’ll also be able to provide some more diversity in jobs.

Hoby: Yeah.

Lise: This program is growing, stretching, transforming, and this opportunity really will catapult that over the next three to five years.

Hoby: Amazing. I want to hearken back to what we talked about a little bit at the beginning of the interview. Imagine talking to your early 20s self who just got diagnosed with RP. Knowing what you know now and having the set of skills that you’ve gained through NIB’s program, through Bosma, what would you tell your nervous early 20s self?

Lise: Gosh, Hoby, I certainly wasted a lot of time not knowing how to have a career.

Hoby: Sure.

Lise: Not knowing that a career was possible. And so if I could wiggle my nose and go back in time, I probably would have tried to jump in with both feet and not have spent so much time being afraid of what darkness might look like and walking more towards the light, which certainly has been this program and every opportunity that’s been provided to me.

Hoby: I love that, but I also would hope that you’d be able to console your early 20s self and say, it’s going to be okay.

Lise: I think probably. Probably because it has been okay, right?

Hoby: It’s been fun. Look at you, look at your career.

Lise: I have the benefit of perspective and being able to go back and certainly it’s been okay. It’s been quite a ride. And I’m to the point now in my life and my career that certainly I wouldn’t have wished blindness on me, but it’s been okay. It’s been okay. We’ve come to the other side.

Hoby: I love that. I just love it. It gives me goosebumps to hear that. For me, as someone who’s never had eyesight, I don’t ever wish to have it because I’d have to relearn the world.

Lise: I am there with you.

Hoby: I just don’t want to have to relearn the world.

Lise: I mean, the only thing I’d like to drive maybe.

Hoby: I would too. That would be incredible.

Lise: Although autonomous cars are going to do it for us, Hoby.

Hoby: We’ll see, let’s hope.

Lise: I’m going to get a Lamborghini. I’m saving up right now.

Hoby: There you go. I guess I better start saving too. I haven’t thought about what I want. Okay, that’s a good point.

Lise: Oh, I’ve thought long and hard.

Hoby: I love that. Lise, I know people are going to be inspired by this discussion, as I certainly was, as I am every time you and I chat and every time I have the pleasure of chatting with you. How can folks get a hold of you?

Lise: You can reach me, my phone number is 317-704-8196. My email address is L-I-S-E-P@bosma.org.

Hoby: Amazing. Lise, thank you for another great conversation. I can’t wait for the next one.

Lise: Hoby, it’s been so great. You do such a great job with this. Thank you so much for having me.

Hoby: Thank you. It’s an absolute honor to have you. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Lise: Thanks.

Hoby: Cheers.

Lise: Cheers.

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