Luke: It’s humbling to see the challenges and sacrifices that folks have to live through and work through. The smiling faces where you could see purpose, right? You could see people who were living a life purpose and felt that–

Hoby: It’s okay to be blind.

Luke: Yeah. And that they were contributing to something really important.

Welcome to the Heard & Empowered podcast presented by National Industries for the Blind. You’re not just a listener here, you’re a catalyst for change. Whether you’re blind, visually impaired or an ally, this is your ultimate resource for building a fulfilling career and an enriching life. We’re on a mission to shift perceptions, open hearts and minds and unlock unparalleled job opportunities for the BVI community. Ready to be heard and empowered? Let’s welcome our host, Dr. Hoby Wedler.

Hoby: Hello and welcome back to the Heard & Empowered podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Hoby Wedler and I am so excited to be with you today. I first want to thank all of our loyal listeners for spreading the love, listening to our episodes.

And if you think you know people who will enjoy this show or get something out of this show to help them live a more productive, independent life, or if you have friends that are just interested in how blind folks and folks who are visually impaired can earn gainful employment and live the lives they love and desire and want to live, this podcast is for you. Please share it. Spread the love that you’ve already been spreading so well. Like the podcast, give it a five-star review if you think we’re so worthy. If you can write a comment in your review that would be most appreciated.

Today’s episode is a first because we are interviewing two amazing folks here. I am beyond honored to share the studio today with Congressman Luke Messer, who served the Indiana Congressional District 6 from 2013 to 2019. And before that he served in the Indiana legislature supporting District 57 of the great state of Indiana. So we’re very honored to have Congressman Luke Messer with us today.

We also have a returning guest you’ve heard from at the very beginning of this show, I believe it was episode three. And that’s my good friend, Mr. Jeff Mittman, who’s president and CEO of Bosma Enterprises in Indianapolis, Indiana.

So, Jeff, Luke, thank you so much. So glad to be with you today.

Luke: Yeah, happy to be here.

Jeff: No, absolutely. Thank you, Hoby.

Hoby: Thank you all so much. I’m going to start the conversation with Congressman Luke Messer. Luke, you’ve done a lot of amazing work in your life, advocating for programs that you believe in, doing the work that you do. And you’re currently a partner at Bose and are doing a lot of other amazing work.

So rather than me trying to regurgitate your amazing work, I’m going to let the person who has done the work maybe explain a little bit about yourself. How you – take your time, take as much time as you need to explain kind of very briefly how you got into politics in the first place and then what’s led you to where you are right now.

Luke: Well, thanks, Hoby. It’s exciting to be here, exciting to be here with my good friend Jeff and talk about such an important issue. You know, my background, I’m a former a whole bunch of stuff. As you described I’m a former member of Congress, former House Republican policy chair while I was in Congress, a former state legislator.

Before all of that, I was just a young guy that was raised by a single-parent mom back in Greensburg, Indiana, which is a small town in the southeastern part of our state. What called me to public service was really I was kind of taught by my mother that I was blessed by the grace of God to be born in the United States of America and that here, if you worked hard and stayed focused all kinds of opportunities were available to you.

And I had all these amazing neighbors and teachers and coaches and folks from the local church that helped us as my brother and I were being raised by our mom. And so over time, it sort of evolved in varying opportunities of public service and then my connection to Bosma Enterprises and Jeff Mittman, and it really comes just from that service in Congress and the fact that they showed up. They showed up to my office and I learned a whole lot more about what they’re about. And I was impressed and tried to help while I was serving in Congress and, of course, proud to continue to help now that I’ve been out of Congress for five or six years.

Hoby: And Congressman Messer, tell me, when did you first meet up with Bosma and understand the importance of providing folks who are blind and visually impaired with gainful employment opportunities?

Luke: So that would have happened in my first year in Congress. I was aware of the program before that. Bosma is a unique name in Indiana. There was a longtime speaker of the House in Indiana named Bosma, and the program was founded through his father, I believe, who was a longtime State Senator. So certainly just as a policymaker in Indiana, I was aware of the program. Both Lisa and Kevin Mandrell, who are two other active parts of the Bosma team, came to see me when I was in Congress.

And we’re going to get to talk about this more, but something I believe for all of the folks in these programs, the extraordinary becomes almost ordinary for you, right? Like you’re so used to making life-changing programming, providing opportunity for folks that otherwise would have real challenges, and doing it in a way where you’re also delivering great goods and products and services, that I think at times you need to be better salesmen of your own extraordinary story.

Hoby: Absolutely.

Luke: And so anyway, that was kind of my opportunity. I came and, of course, toured the facility. And then something else I admire and I think is important is then they didn’t just show up once, they kept showing up. That’s what friends do, you know? And so over time, the relationship built. But that’s the sort of beginning of the relationship.

Hoby: No, I love that. And in addition to supporting folks with disabilities through the AbilityOne® Program, you’ve done a lot of work to support American women in the workforce. And it’s very clear your dedication to helping amazing folks in this fine country find work and find work that is meaningful to them and really giving people of all walks of life an opportunity to step out on the main stage and secure a job.

And, boy, what you said is so resonant with this community, with the whole NIB community and our whole suite of amazing nonprofit agencies, which is that, boy, if you’re persistent and you work hard and you just keep your sights set on whatever goals you have for yourself, this country affords us the opportunity to achieve that success. So I love what you said there.

I want to move over just quickly to CEO Jeff Mittman, president and CEO of Bosma Enterprises. Jeff, people have already heard your amazing story, and it’s no matter that you were one of the debut episodes on the Heard & Empowered podcast because your story is incredibly compelling. But in a few words, if you don’t mind just sharing with us how you went from whatever career you had to working your way up to president and CEO of Bosma.

Jeff: Sure, Hoby, thank you. I was a soldier for 22 years, injured in 2005. I spent about five and a half years in the hospital. And the first time I ever heard of the AbilityOne Program was when I was out doing a speaking event. And I did a speaking event for National Industries for the Blind. And I had no idea that the very products I used on the battlefield, some of the very products they used to save my life came from this program, from the AbilityOne Program. So I took an interest in it.

When I eventually retired, I retired on a Sunday night. Monday morning, I went to work for NIB. I think I was retired for six and a half hours.

Hoby: There you go. I’ll tell you a little, I happen to know Jeff maybe better than some of our listeners, and Jeff does not let grass grow beneath his feet. Let’s just say that. He’s always on the move and always doing amazing work and making magic happen for the folks that he serves. So, great.

Jeff: Thank you. So I went to work for NIB for a few years. And I went off and I worked for the Department of Defense, actually, for about six and a half years. While I was there I was on the board of Bosma. I got to know Bosma in my work at NIB and I came here on the board. And then in 2019 I moved over and eventually I became the CEO here. And it’s such a wonderful opportunity.

I’ll tell you, I’ve had every opportunity God could ever give somebody. And to see us provide those opportunities for people who are blind or visually impaired who might not otherwise have that is just so rewarding.

Hoby: So rewarding and such an incredible gift to give so many folks, including yourself, losing your sight and then able to come back and say, hey, what difference can I make? Well, thank you, Jeff. That’s incredible. Love the work that you do.

And I’d like to take the opportunity and turn it back over to Congressman Luke Messer, ask you a few questions. Your work today in public policy, in helping shape public policy, I’m sure, was shaped by both your time in the Indiana legislature and your time in the United States House of Representatives. How did what you learn serving in Congress move over to the work that you’re doing today?

Luke: Well, the phrase I often use is that policy is made by folks who wear pins. And I used to wear a pin and now I don’t, right? I’m on the outside talking to the same folks. But I have a sense of the way they’re wired and what it takes to get a message across. And one of the most important things is just to show up, right? People listen to those who show up and speak to them. As I told you, that was the beginning, really, of my relationship with Bosma.

I’ve worked hard to try to build bipartisan consensus. When I was first arriving in Congress, I was elected president of my freshman class. There were like 90 new members of Congress. And we tried something really novel. I was a big believer that it’s hard to say ugly things about people that you know. So we decided to just start having breakfast, lunch, dinners, inviting in speakers like Bill Gates and Benjamin Netanyahu and others, and built a coalition of folks across the aisle.

And again, what was the grand strategy? Well, it was mostly just showing up, breaking bread, spending time together, eating at places like We the Pizza. And we did some other things more important than that. We went to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and laid a wreath together and other items like that. But the basic idea was to just try to start conversations in a town right now where, frankly, I have to tell you, as sad as it is 12 years later there’s a whole lot fewer of those conversations than there were before.

Hoby: It’s amazing what happens when we realize that, you know, you and I were talking a little bit before we formally started this recording about how we’re all just people at the end of the day. Some people might like cream of wheat, some people might like oatmeal, some people might like both. But the bottom line is we’re all just people and we need to figure out how to work together.

And that’s sort of my next question, and you answered it sort of briefly here, but I want to dig in a little more detail into what are some strategies? Because I think right now, like you said, in the political system a lot fewer of those conversations are being had where someone says, hey, I have very different views than you, but let’s sit down and have coffee and see what we can learn from each other.

You carried this policy forward from when you were a freshman in Congress and really looked across the aisle and reached across the aisle and literally broke bread with folks. But how did this sort of strategy of working help shape your work just to try to make life better for everybody who inhabits this amazing country?

Luke: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, that’s a great way to describe it. In my farewell speech when I left Congress, I made a point that it’s kind of remarkable that it’s controversial, but I’ll tell you I believe it to be true. I didn’t meet one person when I was serving in Congress who I genuinely believed was out to destroy our country or wreck our country. I met plenty of people who had some bad ideas that I think if they’d have been successful, those ideas would have been bad for our country.

But I saw a whole bunch of people sacrificing to try to make things better. And so how that relates to your question is I think it almost starts with just that simple assumption, right? When we show up and we’re trying to persuade, let’s recognize that whether they are of the same political persuasion that you might be, whoever is arriving, that they’re probably at some sacrifice to their family and life trying to serve.

And so if we can then frame these issues in ways that fit that understanding, then there’s some big opportunity. I think what’s great about the work of NIB and AbilityOne and what we’re trying to do for the visually impaired is, first, this fits into the moral mission of our country, right? Back to, as we started here, the second paragraph of the Declaration, we’re all endowed with our Creator with certain rights, including inalienable rights, by the way. Rights can’t be taken from you, but including the right to pursue happiness, right?

And so I believe what we’re doing between NIB, AbilityOne, those programs for the blind and visually impaired, it’s part of this sort of moral mission for our country. And then beyond that, we have this sort of great story to tell about the success of the programs, both the success for the people they’re serving and also the success of the amazing products and services that are being produced. As Jeff said, I mean, you’ve got soldiers in the battlefield whose lives are being saved by the work that’s being done through these programs.

And then I think, and we’re working on it with this 1% ask, we’ve got to get to some specificity of ask, right? So it’s one thing to be doing great things, but then you also, people can’t help you unless you help them know what they need to do to help you. And I think that’s something that we’re tightening up.

Hoby: Absolutely. No, I love that. And we’re living in a time now where those of us who are blind or visually impaired, I’ve been totally blind since birth, we can’t necessarily serve in the military and serve our country that way. But boy, oh boy, we make the goods and services that keep the amazing folks and men and women in the armed forces alive and well.

Luke Messer, just a question for you. We talked about how you first got in touch with Bosma and the AbilityOne Program. But how do you continue to partner with them today in terms of the great work that’s happening? And I think we’re going to be together on Capitol Hill on May 15th.

Luke: The bottom line is this, I actually work professionally as a client with Bosma now. So I do both informal work and then more formally work with them, both in just kind of counseling and working through issues and then also some on Capitol Hill.

Hoby: So this year on Capitol Hill during the Public Policy Forum for National Industries for the Blind, which really is, we say that it happens usually in the middle of May. This year, our Capitol Hill day is May 15th and we have a conference in the D.C. area during that week. But the truth is the public policy efforts are taking place all year round. And you all have heard very recently from Vivian Fridas and Rick Webster, who are basically in charge of the public policy department at NIB’s headquarters in D.C.

This year, the biggest push, the biggest ask is a Congress mandated 1% utilization goal of AbilityOne products and services. So AbilityOne, we’ve talked about it before, has been in existence, started in 1938 under President Franklin Delano Roosevelt under a different name that we won’t go into here, and eventually morphed into the AbilityOne Program wherein thousands of folks around the country who are blind or visually impaired work for nonprofit agencies supported by National Industries for the Blind and produce all the products and services we’ve been talking about that support the United States government.

Now, informally, the Department of Defense back in 2022 made a voluntary goal of utilizing the AbilityOne products and services for 1% of the goods and services they purchase. And 1% doesn’t sound like a lot, but it actually is a huge amount. However, in the past two years, we haven’t seen a lot of movement from the 0.55% utilization by the Department of Defense of AbilityOne products and services.

So currently this year on Capitol Hill, National Industries for the Blind, as well as the National Association for Employment of Blind People, or NAEPB as you’ll hear me refer to it from here on, are calling for a congressional mandated 1% utilization goal. And I’d like to turn the mic over here to CEO Jeff Mittman, Jeff, just ask you a few questions here.

So there are thousands of employees who are blind or visually impaired producing amazing products and services around the country. And when we say 1%, it doesn’t sound like very much. It’s 1 percent. How will this compare to the utilization goal, if we meet this utilization goal of 1% how will it improve things from where they are now?

Jeff: If Congress mandates a 1% utilization goal for DoD, they’re basically almost doubling what they purchase from people with disabilities. And what we’re talking about here is the growth and providing more opportunities for people who are blind or have significant disabilities. And it’s not just through increased sales, but it’s through the new products and services that DoD would be purchasing through us.

That allows us to develop new lines of business and allows our employees to develop new skills and expand their opportunities as they go through life. So whether they stay in the program or they go elsewhere, they’re developing these new capabilities that they learn with us. And it’s just really a benefit for all.

It also allows the government to ensure that they’re using their domestic manufacturing base as well. It’s a win-win. DoD supports it. We support it as part of, as you said, a congressionally mandated panel is one of their recommendations. So I think it’s just a win all the way around.

Luke: I was just going to chime in on something that Jeff said and amplify it a little bit. I think, again, as we’re advocating here, we have such an amazing story to tell about the success stories of these programs. But Jeff alluded to, also, remember there are other policy considerations for the country. In the wake of COVID, it’s pretty much universally accepted that we had supply chain issues with some major products that we just –

Jeff: 100%.

Luke: You know, we didn’t have enough domestic production. And so this 1% can be great for all the AbilityOne operations around the country, but it’s also great for broader goals for our country in trying to have more domestic production in some of these important supply chains.

Hoby: 100%. And how can we look at what happened over the past three to four years and look to improve? And I think a big way to improve that is to utilize our domestic workforce in more ways than we have before. And, boy, you said it best, both of you, 1% really, really helps out here.

Another question here for CEO Mittman. Why is it important, Jeff Mittman, for the goal to be mandatory, for it not to be voluntary? Why do we need to put it into law?

Jeff: Well, I think when you mandate a goal, what happens is there are subordinate goals, pardon me, subordinate goals that are set down through the chain, the supply chain, the contracting chain. So if Congress mandates it, the DoD mandates it, then the Army mandates it, then each of the units mandate it. And it gets down to the contracting officer. It gets down to the contracting officer and he’s looking down and going, well, you know what? Here’s one of the goals we have to meet, just much like a small business goal or whatever it might be.

So I think when you do that, it puts a focus on it. It allows people to focus on it. And mandate, I don’t like the word mandate. We’re meeting a goal, right? And we’re meeting the goal of supporting not only people with disabilities, but the armed services and the nation as a whole. That’s really what we’re after.

Luke: Yeah, can I chime in there too? I would just say there’s a difference between goals and requirements. You know, I’ve had a goal for a long time to lose weight. It doesn’t always happen, right, because nobody’s making me. And so at the end of the day, it’s a lot of good, well-intentioned people. It’s not anything nefarious.

Jeff: They’ve got a lot going on.

Luke: Yeah, exactly. They got a lot going on, a lot of competing interests. And if we make it clear as a nation that this is something that we think has to happen, I know the good men and women of the DoD will make it happen.

Hoby: I’ve had a goal for a long time to work harder and pay more taxes and do all that. But until someone mandates me to do it, I don’t know. Just got to have a little onus in the game.

So, Congressman Messer, I want to pass the mic back over to you for a second and just ask you, what are some of the most effective ways as we go through this process? You know, you’ve lived it and breathed it, so you’re the right person to ask about this. What do you think are the best ways for our agencies to be heard by representatives in Congress and in the US Senate? What can we do?

Luke: Well, first, I mean, you’ve got to show up. And there’s an old adage, if you’re not at the table, right?, you might be on the menu. And we’ve had some remarkable debates here about these AbilityOne programs in recent years. I think pushed to the other side of that, but we still have to remain vigilant.

But I think we want to show up. You want to make friends before you need them. That’s why I think programs like this May effort are important because you come out, you can see people.

And then back to the very first question that you asked me about how I got connected with Bosma, I think it’s important to invite people to your facility and let them learn more and see how these programs work, get a feel for what they are. And, you know, it doesn’t have to be that complicated. I mean, it can be a 20-minute tour, 20-minute opportunity to meet some employees and 20 minutes with the leadership to kind of make your case.

I once had, when I was first elected to Congress I asked an outgoing member, “Hey, what am I going to know when I leave that you didn’t realize while you were here, but you now understand, right?” because he had left. And his counsel was, “For the entire time you’re there, you’re drinking from a fire hose.” It is typical on a given day to have 20 meetings and to be scrambling for votes. And there are so many policies and so many different areas of concern and international policy and economic policy and environmental policy. And members on their teams have to keep up with all of that.

And if you can get a moment where somebody is physically present with you out in your facility, that’s the kind of thing that sticks with you. And so that, to me, would be one of the key recommendations I would make.

Hoby: Congressman, I might ask you just to harken back to when you were in Congress, maybe to the first time that you visited Bosma Enterprises and got to walk the halls and see what was done. How did that tour and trip that you made to the facility, how did that impact you?

Luke: I mean, it was emotional, frankly, right? Because it’s humbling to see the challenges and sacrifices that folks have to live through and work through. It’s sort of amazing to see the technology, right, like the talking walls. I’m not describing that exactly right, but you know what I mean.

Hoby: No, you got the drift.

Luke: Like just the way that folks are able to maneuver around. The smiling faces where you could see purpose, right? You could see people who were living a life of purpose and felt that they –

Hoby: It’s okay to be blind.

Luke: Yeah. And that they were contributing to something really important, right? And then also just to get to sort of see the physical products and to realize that not only does this make you feel really good for the folks that benefit through the programs, but that we’re producing something important for the country that can make a difference.

And candidly, I mean, I as I told you, I had this sort of abstract understanding of what Bosma was just from my days as a state legislator and being around in Indiana. But I’ve never forgotten and I’ve made multiple trips back. And as I said at the beginning of this podcast, I think what’s so, in one way it’s sort of admirable that everybody’s so used to doing the extraordinary, the extraordinary seems ordinary, you’re a little sometimes reluctant to make sure your story is heard. Don’t be too humble, right?

Hoby: Got to get the word out.

Luke: Because for the legacy of these programs, we’ve got to get the word out so that they continue to thrive and survive.

Hoby: CEO Jeff Mittman is a seasoned veteran on the Hill and advocating for Bosma and NIB as well. Would you like to add anything here? You know, we’ve got to show up and give people tours and bring them into your facilities. But what else have you found to be strategic?

Jeff: One of the things Luke mentioned was just meeting the employees, and that’s one of the things we do. You know, when we go on the Hill it’s not just me, Jeff, the CEO or my board chair or whomever it may be. We actually have advocates who are employees of the program, who the program has changed their lives and they can go in and tell that story. And it means so much to them.

Luke said something about a purpose in life, my employees are so proud of what they do for the nation. As you said, a lot of them weren’t able to serve. I was able to serve. I had that opportunity. And giving them the opportunity to serve themselves is so important. And seeing the difference. And as we said, it’s a win-win. They win, DOD wins, the nation wins. And it’s just really, really important to do that, to get that personal connection along with the data. It’s a two-sided story and it’s just really effective and I think it’s important for us to do that.

Hoby: Thank you. Thank you, CEO. I appreciate that.

Congressman Luke Messer, you know, when the rubber really hits the road, the question that I have for you is, what do you think it’ll take for the NIB and NAEPB to reach the 1% utilization goal? Do you think we’ll have to get more NIB associated nonprofit agencies involved? You know, what’s it going to take for us to get to reach our goal?

Luke: Well, first, persistence, right? Washington is a tough town and very seldom do things happen quickly. I think you’re right in that there’s strength in numbers. So we need to build a broader team of advocates. There’s an old saying in politics that I have friends on both sides of that issue and I want to stay with my friends. So that may sound a little silly, but I think it’s important to avoid cross currents, right? That to the extent we can build a broader consensus and that people who want to help us are hearing a similar message.

We do need bipartisan support, frankly, in a town that’s awfully divided on most topics, this is one of those areas I think that we can build consensus.

Hoby: Who doesn’t want to support this work? It’s hard not to support.

Luke: I think that’s right. And then, to me, what I like about us focusing on this 1%, you’d be surprised at the number of very meaningful, great people who come into your office or invite you to come meet them. And then you get to the end of the meeting and you even leave and you’re not even sure what you were supposed to do to help. They forget to ask for something specific, right?

So whether it’s joining a caucus or signing on to a letter, helping advocate for this 1% policy goal, I think we strengthen our position when we have that specificity of ask. And that’s an important part of making progress.

Hoby: It’s very exciting to sit down and chat with men and women of Congress who represent your district, the area that you’re from, that you call home. And I think it can be sometimes hard to remember, “Okay, what am I really here for? What’s the ask? What do we need to talk about?” And just kind of keeping your eye on that goal is so important.

CEO Mittman, would you like to add anything to that?

Jeff: No, Luke’s absolutely right, being very specific with your ask, making sure you’re to the point, you get your point across and you leave that specific ask because you don’t want to leave any confusion on the table.

Hoby: I have a question for the both of you. What advice would you give someone new to advocacy work in best utilizing their skills, the skills of their nonprofit agency, what have you, to realize this 1% utilization goal? I think we’ve already been over a lot of it. Basically, show up. Remember what you’re asking about. Remember what you’re talking about. But anything else you want to throw in there?

Luke: Jeff, you want to go first?

Jeff: Sure. Thank you, Luke. I think allowing your employees to tell the story. They’re the ones doing the work. They’re the ones getting the job done. I may facilitate that, but they’re the ones who are affected on the ground level. It’s much like when you’re in the Army, a general wants to talk to the private, right? He’ll tell the truth.

Hoby: Absolutely.

Jeff: So allowing them to do that and they can do it so well and they have the skill. Sometimes they’re a little bit nervous, but they get at it and the easier it becomes. So keep at it. Go back again, make a call, write letters. It’s okay, you’re doing a fine job.

Luke: Yeah. And you know, we’ve talked about some of it. I mean, one, I know there have been studies done and I think the facts do matter. So I think that work is important. But you asked about an individual person or somebody who’s newer to advocacy. I love what Jeff had to say. I mean, the real people that work in these programs are going to be the most persuasive. Even as an individual advocate, that would be my advice is keep it real, Right. Like tell your story. Don’t be thinking so much about what you’re supposed to say. Just remember that really what the person you’re talking to wants to hear is the true story of what is happening.

I do think back to that drinking from a fire hose comment, keeping it simple, both in your written materials and in what you have to say is important. You know, telling the story of what your organization is doing, keeping it really clear about what we’re looking for and asking. And then kind of back to everything you need to know in life you learned in kindergarten, right? Like, don’t be afraid to ask questions and don’t be afraid to say thank you.

Hoby: Absolutely.

Luke: I think sometimes just things like that, all the kinds of items that keep it real. We’ve got a great story to tell and just go tell it.

Jeff: Yeah, Luke’s absolutely right. The follow-up and the thank you is very important.

Hoby: So incredibly important.

Jeff: Whether it’s a handwritten note or even just an email sometimes.

Hoby: Thanking people allows them, I always say, you know, if we have mentors in life, thank them now, thank them 20 years from now. Thank them whenever you think of them, because there’s no such thing in too many thank-yous. There really isn’t.

On that note, we as blind folks living in a sighted world who have all applied for many, many jobs in our day and age know that it’s easy to get discouraged. And I think because we have to have slightly tough skin, as blind folks living and working in a sighted world, we understand how to sort of lift up when things feel down and things feel discouraging. But, Jeff, maybe I’ll start this one with you as an advocate yourself and now president and CEO of Bosma Enterprises.

How do you help your advocates not get discouraged and just keep their eye on the prize? You know, even if we won’t get our 1% utilization this year, how do we come back bright-eyed and bushy tailed next year and try again for the same thing?

Jeff: Sometimes there are long term goals. I think it’s just sitting down and spending the time, just like any good leader you should spend time with your team. And spend time to encourage them, make sure they understand the situation, make sure they understand the facts and how to tell their story. So it’s a matter of building that confidence with them as they go and encourage them afterwards.

We should thank our advocates after they go, not just the members of our Congress, because they’re taking time out of their busy lives to do this.

Hoby: And they’re laying their personal hopes and dreams and aspirations on their sleeve.

Jeff: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. It’s hard for some people to tell a story. And when they muster up the courage to do that, to tell their story, it’s very important that we recognize that contribution.

Hoby: Amen to that.

Luke: Yeah, I mean, I love that comment from Jeff. And I guess I have kind of two kind of high-minded answers and then, and then one that’s a little more practical. But I think, first, failure is not an option, right? Like you all know how important these programs are. You know the lives that you change. You know the great work for our country. And if we’re not fighting for it, then kind of shame on us, who will? So I think that’s right.

Second, the best defense is a good offense. You know, we’ve been under attack a little bit in recent years. And I think pushing hard on this issue keeps the momentum in the right direction. And over time, I think this will succeed. We’ve already got the general consensus, we just now have to get to the requirements.

And then third, and here’s kind of the practical thing. Congress is a weird place, right? And it is crazy busy. And as I mentioned to you, everybody’s drinking from a fire hose. Meetings can happen in the hallway. They can happen on the street. They can happen with somebody going back into the committee hearing and back five times. It may feel weird to us, but that’s just the way those meetings are. They still matter.

You may have somebody whose voice sounds like they’re 14 years old that’s a staffer for these members of Congress. I’m telling you, those staffers make a difference. They are setting policy on many of these issues. So even though it feels weird, that’s just kind of normal out there, right?

And so I do think at times we get discouraged because maybe we don’t know the culture, right? We don’t know that that’s just kind of where it is. And look, I’m a former member and I try to see members when I’m there. Often, I’m telling you, having the meeting with the young junior sounding staffer may be as important or more than meeting directly with the member. And so you don’t want to be discouraged just by some of the things that, as crazy as it may seem, is just sort of normal out there on Capitol Hill.

Hoby: Yeah. Boy, it’s such an interesting thing. And this conversation that we’ve had has taught me a great deal about advocacy. I’m sure it’s taught a lot of folks about advocacy as it stands from the NIB standpoint. But, folks, let me tell you, this is advocacy 101. And the advice we’ve been given from these two fine gentlemen is as good as gold. You know, if you want to advocate for whatever it is you believe in.

I have one question. I want to ask you both the same question. Curious about where your answers go for this one. Time is unfortunately running a little bit short, but I want to ask this question and then I’ve got one more final for you and then we’ll sign off. But my question for you is, you know, when we challenge ourselves, when we really push ourselves to do the best work we can do, and I don’t know what life is without challenging myself because of that taste of success.

And by the way, failure is the most important method to, you know, one of the most important methods to challenging ourselves and achieving success. Because you’ve got to fall down. If you don’t fall down, you don’t learn. We’ve got to learn. We got to fall down and get back up and learn from our mistakes. But my question for you, and not many people ask this question, so it’s one that I really think is fun, is what is one thing, if you think back on your careers, wherever you want to take us, whether it’s – Jeff, we’ll start with you, whether it’s, you know, your work at Bosma now or your work in the army for 22 years. What is one success that you think back on and you say, man, I am so proud of that?

Jeff: I think the one success that automatically comes to mind is I think the very success that brought me where I am here today. I can draw a straight line back to it through several gates. But immediately, probably within a year of me getting hurt, I started to do a lot of public speaking. I’m a guy who when I was injured, I lost most of my teeth, my nose, and my lips. I was not a pretty sight. And I would actually have surgery and then two days later be on stage somewhere speaking.

And building the confidence to do that, I think directly led to where I am today. Because if I can do that, right, if I get on stage in front of 3,000 people and do a speech two days out of surgery and I’m injured and I still have bandages on, it gives you the confidence to do just about anything. I mean, things aren’t that scary.

So once you build that success, that first step, the second step is easier, the third step is easier, the fourth step is easier. And you figure out, a lot of times you take on challenges you don’t know, but you take on the challenge anyway.

Hoby: If we try something hard and we succeed at it, we can do whatever we want to do. Congressman Luke Messer, how would you respond?

Luke: Wow, that’s a big, heady question. And I mean, obviously beyond kind of personal family kind of thoughts and then maybe specific legislative achievements, I can tell you something really insightful that my wife told me, or asked me to do right as I was first elected to Congress.

She said, you know, I love you and I trust you and I’m sure you’ll do lots of important things. But she said, I really ask that you not be one of those people who’s out here for six years, eight years, ten years, and you’re constantly going to the podium talking about them, talking about how terrible all those people are out in Washington, D.C. Because the reality is, once you’re there six years, eight years, ten years, you’re one of them.

Hoby: Absolutely.

Luke: And I won’t tell you I was perfect, but I mentioned to you earlier the work we did on bringing people together when I was in the freshman class, the relationships and bonds that I tried to keep connected during my time there. I mean, look, I’m a pretty conservative Republican in my basic point of philosophy and from an issue perspective. So it’s not as if I was a middle-of-the-road centrist on policy. But even up to my final day, as I mentioned to you in my farewell speech where I made the point that I found good and decent people that agreed with me a lot and good and decent people that maybe didn’t agree with me very much, but they were trying to make our country better.

And onto my work now as a former member and efforts both at the state level and in Washington to try to continue to bring people together, I guess that’s the thing that I’m proudest of. I get discouraged like anybody else. I think that there are things in the modern political landscape that are hard to see and watch and hear. And by the way, I don’t want to minimize the issue differences. They matter. And those debates are legitimate.

But I just think if we’re going to survive as a country, we have to have a basic civility and a focus on truth. I guess I’m proud that at the back end of having served in Congress, I still try to have that same civility and focus on truth.

Hoby: You should be proud of that. That is a noble goal, and it sounds like you’ve done such a great job achieving it. And both of you, it’s just I could keep talking to you for hours on end. And by the way, I’ll be up on the Hill with you, as will many, many other individuals. And can’t wait to break bread and have some great conversations up there. And you know it’s only a matter of time before I ask you all to come back on the mic and join me in the studio. You’re an amazing group of folks to talk to.

My last question is a very simple one. People like me are going to listen to this episode and be really inspired and may very well want to reach out and say, hey, how do I do such and such? Or I want to make a bigger difference when I’m advocating for my nonprofit agency. How can people get a hold of you?

Jeff: JeffM@Bosma.org.

Hoby: JeffM@Bosma.org, B-O-S-M-A dot O-R-G.

Jeff: That’s it.

Hoby: How about you, Congressman Messer?

Luke: Yeah, I’ll give you two. My cell phone is 317-504-7916. And then just the easiest email, I’ve got like five emails, but CLM@LukeMesser.com. That one always comes to me on my phone. So either one of those ways. You know, happy to talk to anybody who’s –

Hoby: If a cell phone number isn’t an open book, I don’t know what is. Former Congressman Luke Messer and President and CEO of Bosma Enterprises, Luke Messer and Jeff Mittman, it has been an absolute joy to chat with you today. And I just want to thank you both for your incredible work. Thank you for what you do. And boy, we’ll see you on the Hill.

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